Discussion:
What is the best current production tube amp?
(too old to reply)
Hakon Sigurd
2005-10-09 05:56:16 UTC
Permalink
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?

to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
current production tube amps, visit:
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
Guncho
2005-10-09 06:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
I'd say the Fender Deluxe is about 10 thousand better than a Marshall
Super Lead.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Marshall+Super+Lead&word2=Fender+Deluxe

Chris
Z_2K
2005-10-09 10:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guncho
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
I'd say the Fender Deluxe is about 10 thousand better than a Marshall
Super Lead.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Marshall+Super+Lead&wo
rd2=Fender+Deluxe
Post by Guncho
Chris
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Polfus&word2=Jason+Ham
ilton+Taylor
Les Cargill
2005-10-09 19:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guncho
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
I'd say the Fender Deluxe is about 10 thousand better than a Marshall
Super Lead.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Marshall+Super+Lead&word2=Fender+Deluxe
Chris
That is a Humvee vs Ferrari comparison.

--
Les Cargill
Guncho
2005-10-09 21:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Guncho
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
I'd say the Fender Deluxe is about 10 thousand better than a Marshall
Super Lead.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Marshall+Super+Lead&word2=Fender+Deluxe
Chris
That is a Humvee vs Ferrari comparison.
--
Les Cargill
Hey both are pretty sweet!

Chris
Rich Koerner
2005-10-10 11:01:16 UTC
Permalink
What is the best current production tube amp?


THAT, was the question.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<thinking>


Rich's translation of the question:

Which is the best current Polished Turd, in current production.



Rich's answer:

They are all GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Polished Turds, that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that's, what you are looking for.



Now, if you are looking for a GREAT amp.

That, requires a very different type of question.




Rich's answer:



Regards,

Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
http://www.timeelect.com

Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,
Music & Studio Production,
Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
winnard
2005-10-09 12:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
Mesa Booger Triple Rectumfryer is the best amp for people who don't know
how to use a Marshall correctly.


winnard
Saul_Sabia
2005-10-09 14:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by winnard
Mesa Booger Triple Rectumfryer is the best amp for people who don't know
how to use a Marshall correctly.
well, that explains the burning sensation...


Saul
Sasquatch
2005-10-09 13:48:55 UTC
Permalink
That definately depends on too many factors to name just one. Your needs
will dictate what is best for you.
--
Sasquatch
http://freefender.com/index.php?referral=374995
http://www.soundclick.com/mulunjun
harryj
2005-10-09 14:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sasquatch
That definately depends on too many factors to name just one. Your needs
will dictate what is best for you.
--
Sasquatch
http://freefender.com/index.php?referral=374995
http://www.soundclick.com/mulunjun
---------

Ahh, the voice of reason

HJ
Brian Hill
2005-10-09 14:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sasquatch
That definately depends on too many factors to name just one. Your needs
will dictate what is best for you.
--
Sasquatch
http://freefender.com/index.php?referral=374995
http://www.soundclick.com/mulunjun
Hey Squatch. I was checking your website. Whats with that guy in the picture
that has his head stuck in the ground and praying. It looks like it was shot
in India or somewhere? Funny!

Brian
Sasquatch
2005-10-10 14:02:19 UTC
Permalink
We were working on an album in the early 90's tenatively titled "Time For A
Change". When we put this stuff online in 2002 or 2003 we wanted to keep
that theme. I guess the twisted logic is that if your head is stuck in the
ground, well, it is definately time for a change. BTW, if I remember
correctly the photo was of a guy in India who did that for some kind of
Hindu ritual.
--
Sasquatch
http://freefender.com/index.php?referral=374995
http://www.soundclick.com/mulunjun
Post by Brian Hill
Post by Sasquatch
That definately depends on too many factors to name just one. Your needs
will dictate what is best for you.
--
Sasquatch
http://freefender.com/index.php?referral=374995
http://www.soundclick.com/mulunjun
Hey Squatch. I was checking your website. Whats with that guy in the
picture that has his head stuck in the ground and praying. It looks like
it was shot in India or somewhere? Funny!
Brian
Brian Hill
2005-10-10 14:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sasquatch
We were working on an album in the early 90's tenatively titled "Time For
A Change". When we put this stuff online in 2002 or 2003 we wanted to keep
that theme. I guess the twisted logic is that if your head is stuck in the
ground, well, it is definately time for a change. BTW, if I remember
correctly the photo was of a guy in India who did that for some kind of
Hindu ritual.
--
Sasquatch
People do the damndest shit. : )

P.S. I wonder how he breathed? It looks like someone took a shovel and
packed him in like a fence post. lol

B.H.
Large Farva
2005-10-09 14:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Soldano.
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
Doug
2005-10-09 15:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Impossible to say, but there are LOTS of good ones. Never before have
there been so many great guitar amps. Vintage (and you can FIND them on
Ebay), vintage reissues, modern versions, multi channel, boutique
handwired. The list goes on and on. If you narrowed it down to "best
blues amp" or "best rock amp" or "best metal amp", it might help, but
you still have a smaller, similar problem.

All tube signal path seems to be a prerequisite for any good guitar amp.
Jon
2005-10-09 22:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
Yeah right, Jarl Sigurd's son. Nice try.
Keith Adams
2005-10-10 04:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.

"Hakon Sigurd" <***@xxxnospamxxx.gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@news.supernews.com...
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?

to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
current production tube amps, visit:
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
n***@wt.net
2005-10-10 05:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards

Thats kinda what I was thinking when I first saw the thread...
But...It's kinda complicated...And varies to maker..
It's not that circuit boards in themselves are that bad,
actually, they can be quite good. The problem is all the
other cheap crap they tend to use. Like cheap plastic
jacks that are mounted *directly* to the board. Whatever
pinhead injuneer thought of that one, get a rope...
Also other cheap problems can usually be found.
The amps often sound quite good. The problem is
they aren't as reliable, and cost more to fix, when they
do break. I have heard some of the small marshall
reissues are supposed to be half decent, but I've never
checked one out. They say the fender reissues are ok as
far as tone, but I've heard they can be a PIA to work on.
When I can buy a 70's silverface for less than the price
of the reissue, and it's blackfaced to boot, you know
which line I'll be in. Or was in I should say, as far as the
SR...I went for the older amp. I bid on two more amps
last night, but dangit...I lost both...And the crappy part was,
I lost both by the exact top amount I had bid. 5 bucks more,
and I would have had em..:/ I bid on a 67 traynor bassmaster,
which I was going to use as my "plexi", and I also bid on a old
18 watt dual EL-84 amp for fartin around... But...I lost em...
Dangit... Oh well. More to try later... I'm kickin myself losing
that bassmaster, as it was a 67,worked on, and ready to brown the
food. I was going to mod it into a plexi circuit maybe, if I wasn't
satisfied with the stock tone. I hear even the stock tone is
pretty dang good. I still plan to bag one... To heck with high
priced marshalls for now...I'm gonna go with a po mans plexi,
although even the traynors are creeping up lately...
MK
n***@wt.net
2005-10-11 21:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
.I'm gonna go with a po mans plexi,
although even the traynors are creeping up lately...
Action update.... I snagged one a few min ago.
Not exactly what I was lookin for, but it will be a
butt toaster none the less. I won a YBA-1A Mark II
which is the high power version. Snagged it for
255.00 + ship. The bad part, "in a way" is it's the
80-100w high power version. I really want a 50w
version, and may yet buy one of those too...
But...On the good side, this will give me a "high power"
psuedo-plexi chassis to build on, and should eventually
be a toaster deluxe... I do have other B+ trannys, and it's
possible I could drop a lower volt tranny in it, but I may
just keep it high power for the rare times I could use it,
and get another 50w amp. I could use a dummy load
also, or use yellowjackets, etc, to lower the power.
Anyway Guncho, wanna come out and play amp wars
now? :) LOL...
I'll have a big bat to swing with..LOL.... Those bassmasters
are pretty brutal dogs. They say the plate on these is
usually about 550 v or so...Can be more in some cases..
MK
claudel
2005-10-11 21:43:25 UTC
Permalink
<http://www.marshallamps.com/product.asp?productCode=JTM45/100&pageType=OVERVIEW>


Claude
n***@wt.net
2005-10-11 22:10:49 UTC
Permalink
http://www.marshallamps.com/product.asp?productCode=JTM45/100&pageType=OVERVIEW

The price though.... :( Too rich for my iron poor blood.
Thats why I'm building a pseudo version of pretty much appx that
amp. I could steer to the bassman side also, but I really need
a more plexi sound, so thats where I'm gonna go with it. Already
got the super for the "fender" sound.. MK
claudel
2005-10-11 22:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by claudel
http://www.marshallamps.com/product.asp?productCode=JTM45/100&pageType=OVERVIEW
The price though.... :( Too rich for my iron poor blood.
Thats why I'm building a pseudo version of pretty much appx that
amp. I could steer to the bassman side also, but I really need
a more plexi sound, so thats where I'm gonna go with it. Already
got the super for the "fender" sound.. MK
It's expensive, but it sure is pretty...

Claude
Guncho
2005-10-11 23:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by n***@wt.net
.I'm gonna go with a po mans plexi,
although even the traynors are creeping up lately...
Action update.... I snagged one a few min ago.
Not exactly what I was lookin for, but it will be a
butt toaster none the less. I won a YBA-1A Mark II
which is the high power version. Snagged it for
255.00 + ship. The bad part, "in a way" is it's the
80-100w high power version. I really want a 50w
version, and may yet buy one of those too...
But...On the good side, this will give me a "high power"
psuedo-plexi chassis to build on, and should eventually
be a toaster deluxe... I do have other B+ trannys, and it's
possible I could drop a lower volt tranny in it, but I may
just keep it high power for the rare times I could use it,
and get another 50w amp. I could use a dummy load
also, or use yellowjackets, etc, to lower the power.
Anyway Guncho, wanna come out and play amp wars
now? :) LOL...
I'll have a big bat to swing with..LOL.... Those bassmasters
are pretty brutal dogs. They say the plate on these is
usually about 550 v or so...Can be more in some cases..
MK
Traynors rule. You could always pull out two power tubes to halve the
wattage?

CHris
Trevor Hyde
2005-10-12 12:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guncho
Traynors rule. You could always pull out two power tubes to halve the
wattage?
I have a Traynor YGL3 Mark III, which is the twin-on-steroids model. It has
a good sound cranked, but I can never go there. Even playing out with my
bassist playing a 1000watt amp, I still cannot push the volume to the point
that the tone is optimal. You do not begin to get any overdrive until the
volume is at 8 or 9. It is just too loud. Everyone complains about their
ears hurting with the volume at 5 or so, so 10 is just too loud. I have
tried pulling two tubes, but the drop in volume is really quite minimal,
and the tone gets a little muddy.

I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to be
practical. I use a Sovtek Mig Midget for my primary amp, and have recently
begun using an Ampeg Jet (18 watts, so I can actually crank it!).
n***@wt.net
2005-10-12 14:13:24 UTC
Permalink
I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to
be
practical. .................

I'm kinda worried about that with the mark II... I might have to derate

the thing a bit if it's too much. I've got two or three smaller power
trannies I could probably try if I wanted to lower the plate down.
I was thinking...Yes, dangerous.... I wondering if it would be
practical
to use *two* power trannies, and switch power levels. Probably would
need a way to change bias.. Dunno... Probably too much a hassle..
I worry about keeping modern polished turds alive with that much
plate voltage...Better keep that fan a runnin.... MK
Lord Valve
2005-10-12 15:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Hyde
I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to be
practical. .................
I'm kinda worried about that with the mark II... I might have to derate
the thing a bit if it's too much. I've got two or three smaller power
trannies I could probably try if I wanted to lower the plate down.
I was thinking...Yes, dangerous.... I wondering if it would be
practical
to use *two* power trannies, and switch power levels. Probably would
need a way to change bias.. Dunno... Probably too much a hassle..
I worry about keeping modern polished turds alive with that much
plate voltage...Better keep that fan a runnin.... MK
You are an idiot.

Lord Valve
Expert
n***@wt.net
2005-10-12 16:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Valve
You are an idiot.
Probably true. But as far as what? Changing tranny's,
or worrying about the tubes handling the power? It's
other mkII users comments about the tubes/voltage that made
me ponder that. Some say the latest versions can
handle it as long as the fan is running. I don't see anything
too idiotic about dropping the plate voltage, as long as
I don't bugger it up so it can't be reversed back. The thing
may well end up way too dang loud to really use except at
mondo-huge gigs. Am I missing something here?
Seems to me dropping the voltage would convert it pretty
much to a 50w version, except for maybe a different output xfmr.
The dual tranny idea was more joking that anything, although
it could probably be done. I'm not really too serious about that.
MK
RPM1
2005-10-13 12:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Hyde
I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to be
practical. .................
I don't much about electronics but if it's too loud,
can't you use an attenuator, (like a "Hot Plate"), to
lower the volume?

Just curious.
Patrick
Ron Thompson
2005-10-13 12:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by RPM1
Post by Trevor Hyde
I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to
be practical. .................
I don't much about electronics but if it's too loud,
can't you use an attenuator, (like a "Hot Plate"), to
lower the volume?
Attenuators tend to make a good amp sound bad and a bad amp sound worse.
--
rct

The opinions above are mine and mine alone.
n***@wt.net
2005-10-13 19:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Attenuators tend to make a good amp sound bad and a bad amp sound
worse.

Thats kinda why I was considering maybe dropping the B+, instead of
trying that route or others. But I won't decide till I see it. I may
end up leaving it
stock if it barks well as is. I might could use a higher power amp on
occasion.
I can always buy other 50 watters if need be... I can also isolate the
cab a bit
too...Throw a couple of blankets around it, etc... :/ MK
howldog
2005-10-12 14:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by Guncho
Traynors rule. You could always pull out two power tubes to halve the
wattage?
I have a Traynor YGL3 Mark III, which is the twin-on-steroids model. It has
a good sound cranked, but I can never go there. Even playing out with my
bassist playing a 1000watt amp, I still cannot push the volume to the point
that the tone is optimal. You do not begin to get any overdrive until the
volume is at 8 or 9. It is just too loud. Everyone complains about their
ears hurting with the volume at 5 or so, so 10 is just too loud. I have
tried pulling two tubes, but the drop in volume is really quite minimal,
and the tone gets a little muddy.
I saw a gig recently where the guitarist used an old Selmer amp, I
think that was the name. Yeah it sounded great but he hadda turn it up
to ear-blistering levels. Not overly practical.
Post by Trevor Hyde
I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to be
practical. I use a Sovtek Mig Midget for my primary amp, and have recently
begun using an Ampeg Jet (18 watts, so I can actually crank it!).
the sovtek amps were really groovy, i used to have one and like an
IDIOT i sold it and now i wish i still had it
Trevor Hyde
2005-10-12 15:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by howldog
Post by Trevor Hyde
I dearly love the amp, but unfortunately, it just is too damn loud to
be practical. I use a Sovtek Mig Midget for my primary amp, and have
recently begun using an Ampeg Jet (18 watts, so I can actually crank
it!).
the sovtek amps were really groovy, i used to have one and like an
IDIOT i sold it and now i wish i still had it
Prices have been going up steadily on them. I would cost me about twice as
much to get one on eBay as I paid four years ago. The Midget is the model
with with super-high gain channel (very Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier-like;
still an all-tube signal path, no clipping diodes). I play primarily lower-
gain stuff, but every now and again I plug into the high gain channel just
to grin a bit.
Guncho
2005-10-11 23:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by n***@wt.net
.I'm gonna go with a po mans plexi,
although even the traynors are creeping up lately...
Action update.... I snagged one a few min ago.
Not exactly what I was lookin for, but it will be a
butt toaster none the less. I won a YBA-1A Mark II
which is the high power version. Snagged it for
255.00 + ship. The bad part, "in a way" is it's the
80-100w high power version. I really want a 50w
version, and may yet buy one of those too...
But...On the good side, this will give me a "high power"
psuedo-plexi chassis to build on, and should eventually
be a toaster deluxe... I do have other B+ trannys, and it's
possible I could drop a lower volt tranny in it, but I may
just keep it high power for the rare times I could use it,
and get another 50w amp. I could use a dummy load
also, or use yellowjackets, etc, to lower the power.
Anyway Guncho, wanna come out and play amp wars
now? :) LOL...
I'll have a big bat to swing with..LOL.... Those bassmasters
are pretty brutal dogs. They say the plate on these is
usually about 550 v or so...Can be more in some cases..
MK
Amp wars for tone or sheer volume?

Chris
n***@wt.net
2005-10-12 00:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Traynors rule. You could always pull out two power tubes to halve the
wattage?

The high power version still uses only two tubes. Just mucho
more plate voltage. That was why I was saying, I could change
that tranny to say a appx 450v tranny, and I'd have an instant 50w
version, except for likely tranny differences. The high power version
is supposed to have bigger tranny's.. Not sure though till I see it.
The years vary quite a bit...I can tell that is a 70's model, but don't

know about the exact details till I see it.

Amp wars for tone or sheer volume?

Actually both are supposed to be pretty good on the bassmasters.
When you ask owners to describe the tone, most say "plexi"...
I know they are not exactly the same, but with mods can be nearly.
And you can take your pick which you wanna clone. The plexi,
or the bassman... I'm gonna clone the plexi, if I end up not satisfied
with the stock tone. I'm sure I'll do the usual quicky mods no matter
what.. But eventually I wanna build up a hot rodded plexi clone.
Or something along those lines... I'm still considering a 50w Laney
too... Actually, I may hold on the 50w bassmaster, and go ahead
and get a Laney head next. That would give me quite a tone selection.
And also would add me up to four larger size tube amps, if you count my
gibson mercury head that I intend to use sooner or later.
Would have the super, the traynor, the laney, and the gibson to choose
from. Or .....ALL AT ONCE! LOL! That wouldn't brown the food, that
would burn it to a crisp. :/ BTW, my first plans are to use the
traynor
with a 2x15 cab, being thats what I got laying around at the time...
Maybe try 4x12's later...
MK
Grant W. Petty
2005-11-22 14:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?

If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
Keith Adams
2005-11-22 15:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Sorry man.I see that the last reply of mine was the typical just ate
a shit sandwich and wiped my mouth on soiled drawers attitude. If I
wasnt afraid of another no win outcome I believe I'd try and kick my
ass. I dont know so much that theres a sound difference. Its the mere
fact that they're harder than hell to work on without burning up traces
and such A tag board like they used through the 60's to 70's is easy to
work on and modify. That and the basic quality of most things made
these days is disposable. Thats obvious because there used to be a fix
it shop on every block down town. They're a thing of the past because
nothings worth fixing anymore. Thats how Leo Fender started. Fixing
toasters.
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new
Vox,Marshall,Fender
Post by Keith Adams
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the
signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?

If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
William Black
2005-11-22 16:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant W. Petty
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
Nope.

The major difference is that the earlier stuff used lower quality
components.

If you want something made in the style of 'way back when' buy a Cornford...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Keith Adams
2005-11-22 20:54:05 UTC
Permalink
The only inferior component would be the carbon resistors which some
people swear by. The cheap pots of old are going for big bucks as are
the alnico Jensen speakers which were considered garbage then. The old
electrolytics were great. They didnt use plastic jacks,the
transformers were much better unless you pay an arm and a leg for a
custom made/wound new one. Many old amps still have their original(
though long in the tooth) German and American made tubes in em.
Inferior quality components? Try something else. That crap dont fly
Post by Grant W. Petty
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
Nope.

The major difference is that the earlier stuff used lower quality
components.

If you want something made in the style of 'way back when' buy a
Cornford...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough
gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
William Black
2005-11-22 22:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
The only inferior component would be the carbon resistors which some
people swear by.
And some people swear at...

Especially the +/- 25% ones...

The cheap pots of old are going for big bucks as are
Post by Keith Adams
the alnico Jensen speakers which were considered garbage then. The old
electrolytics were great.
You can still buy high quality electrolytics, but most amp manufacturers
won't pay that kind of money for discrete componants.


They didnt use plastic jacks,the
Post by Keith Adams
transformers were much better unless you pay an arm and a leg for a
custom made/wound new one.
Most modern amps use toroidal. There seem to be a distinct difference in
sound between them and the old 'E' shaped former type.
.
Many old amps still have their original(
Post by Keith Adams
though long in the tooth) German and American made tubes in em.
How old?

And most of the early Brit amps used Mullard tubes which have all now long
passed their 'sell by' dates.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
William Black
2005-11-22 16:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
There's no difference to the sound.

PCBs are more rugged, easier and cheaper to build, but require a higher
level of skill to work on when they require mending.

SMT stuff more so...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
scullen
2005-11-22 17:05:53 UTC
Permalink
PCBs can be replaced by monkeys when they need service, so the cost of
repair and turnaround time is usually lower with PCBs.

-- former monkey
Keith Adams
2005-11-22 20:45:14 UTC
Permalink
How long do you think you'll still be able to find the correct board?
Back to the disposable theory
"scullen" <***@charter.net> wrote in message news:***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
PCBs can be replaced by monkeys when they need service, so the cost of
repair and turnaround time is usually lower with PCBs.

-- former monkey
PRS GEEK
2005-11-22 17:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well, you
can't. I feel bad for ya!

Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to a
_lot_ of difference.
--
Jeff

http://tinyurl.com/8sz9r
William Black
2005-11-22 18:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well, you
can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to a
_lot_ of difference.
No.

The same circuit made by two different techniques sound and work exactly the
same.

What you're probably hearing is differences in the components, if there is
any...

You don't get differences from 'surface effect' until you get up around
20MHz, which is miles above hearing.

If you could hear a difference you could see it on a spectrum analyser, and
I've tried it, and you can't.

Now if you want to believe that you can hear a difference then go ahead,
it's your money and if you spend a shed load of cash on something then you
obviously need to believe that you're right...

There's a crew of snake oil salesman waiting right now trying to sell people
directional guitar leads and boutique 30 watt amps for £1,000 each and even
thermionic rectifiers, which were well out of use by the time the real
classic stuff came along in the 'sixties.

Go ahead, make their day...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-22 18:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well,
you
Post by PRS GEEK
can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up
to
a
Post by PRS GEEK
_lot_ of difference.
No.
The same circuit made by two different techniques sound and work exactly the
same.
What you're probably hearing is differences in the components, if there is
any...
You don't get differences from 'surface effect' until you get up around
20MHz, which is miles above hearing.
If you could hear a difference you could see it on a spectrum analyser,
and
I've tried it, and you can't.
Now if you want to believe that you can hear a difference then go ahead,
it's your money and if you spend a shed load of cash on something then you
obviously need to believe that you're right...
There's a crew of snake oil salesman waiting right now trying to sell people
directional guitar leads and boutique 30 watt amps for £1,000 each and even
thermionic rectifiers, which were well out of use by the time the real
classic stuff came along in the 'sixties.
Go ahead, make their day...
I have heard the differences... Like I say, if you can't tell...

Jeff
William Black
2005-11-22 18:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
The same circuit made by two different techniques sound and work exactly the
same.
What you're probably hearing is differences in the components, if
there
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
is
any...
You don't get differences from 'surface effect' until you get up around
20MHz, which is miles above hearing.
If you could hear a difference you could see it on a spectrum analyser,
and
I've tried it, and you can't.
Now if you want to believe that you can hear a difference then go ahead,
it's your money and if you spend a shed load of cash on something then you
obviously need to believe that you're right...
There's a crew of snake oil salesman waiting right now trying to sell people
directional guitar leads and boutique 30 watt amps for £1,000 each and even
thermionic rectifiers, which were well out of use by the time the real
classic stuff came along in the 'sixties.
Go ahead, make their day...
I have heard the differences... Like I say, if you can't tell...
If you can hear it then you should certainly be able to measure it.

The human ear isn't that precise an instrument

Go and measure it and prove your point.

You'll need a spectrum analyser with a swept output, an appropriate camera
and a couple of hours.

Post the details when you've finished...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Odin
2005-11-22 18:52:32 UTC
Permalink
"William Black" <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
message
Post by William Black
Post by PRS GEEK
I have heard the differences... Like I say, if you can't
tell...
Post by William Black
If you can hear it then you should certainly be able to
measure it.
Post by William Black
The human ear isn't that precise an instrument
Go and measure it and prove your point.
You'll need a spectrum analyser with a swept output, an
appropriate camera
Post by William Black
and a couple of hours.
Post the details when you've finished...
I can *feel* the differences in amps that I sometimes cannot
hear (not necessarily a PTP vs PCB thing, just different
amps that are supposed to sound similar). The amp reacts
differently even though the sound is very similar. You
can't measure that feeling, but it makes me play differently
and do things I wouldn't do on the other amp. Of course, I
don't measure my amps, I play them, so I may be basing my
decisions on a different criteria than someone who buys
according to the spec sheet.
William Black
2005-11-22 19:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
message
Post by William Black
Post by PRS GEEK
I have heard the differences... Like I say, if you can't
tell...
Post by William Black
If you can hear it then you should certainly be able to
measure it.
Post by William Black
The human ear isn't that precise an instrument
Go and measure it and prove your point.
You'll need a spectrum analyser with a swept output, an
appropriate camera
Post by William Black
and a couple of hours.
Post the details when you've finished...
I can *feel* the differences in amps that I sometimes cannot
hear (not necessarily a PTP vs PCB thing, just different
amps that are supposed to sound similar). The amp reacts
differently even though the sound is very similar.
That's very true.

The major difference in 'feel' is often the way the different controls
interact.

Amplifier design (especially valve amplifier design) is almost static, but
how the controls works is a function of the amp's designer, and these days
the designers are almost all musicians who build the things to reflect their
own playing.
Post by Keith Adams
You
can't measure that feeling, but it makes me play differently
and do things I wouldn't do on the other amp. Of course, I
don't measure my amps, I play them, so I may be basing my
decisions on a different criteria than someone who buys
according to the spec sheet.
On some level everyone buys on the spec sheet.

Everyone wants certain features and a particular level of output, everyone,
with notable exceptions, has a price limit.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Odin
2005-11-22 20:46:35 UTC
Permalink
"William Black" <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
message
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
I can *feel* the differences in amps that I sometimes
cannot
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
hear (not necessarily a PTP vs PCB thing, just different
amps that are supposed to sound similar). The amp
reacts
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
differently even though the sound is very similar.
That's very true.
The major difference in 'feel' is often the way the
different controls
Post by William Black
interact.
Amplifier design (especially valve amplifier design) is
almost static, but
Post by William Black
how the controls works is a function of the amp's
designer, and these days
Post by William Black
the designers are almost all musicians who build the
things to reflect their
Post by William Black
own playing.
It's part design, part construction, part materials. Even
simple things like the board layout and the wire used can
affect the sound and feel of the amp. It's not that the
manufacturer built the amp a certain way to affect the tone,
it's more of a side effect of the construction. You find
these differences by accident more than anything and usually
don't know why you like one amp better than another, it just
feels or sounds better. It's not something that can be
"modeled", but really the folks buying the modeling amps
wouldn't know the difference anyway so it doesn't need to be
modeled.
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
You
can't measure that feeling, but it makes me play
differently
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
and do things I wouldn't do on the other amp. Of
course, I
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
don't measure my amps, I play them, so I may be basing
my
Post by William Black
Post by Odin
decisions on a different criteria than someone who buys
according to the spec sheet.
On some level everyone buys on the spec sheet.
Everyone wants certain features and a particular level of
output, everyone,
Post by William Black
with notable exceptions, has a price limit.
That's true. But I'd never buy an amp without hearing it
first no matter what the spec sheet said it would sound
like. Let's face it, to 99% of the population a Marshall
and a Mesa, or a Fender and a Vox, etc. all sound the same.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-22 21:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
message
Post by William Black
Post the details when you've finished...
I can *feel* the differences in amps that I sometimes cannot
hear (not necessarily a PTP vs PCB thing, just different
amps that are supposed to sound similar). The amp reacts
differently even though the sound is very similar. You
can't measure that feeling, but it makes me play differently
and do things I wouldn't do on the other amp. Of course, I
don't measure my amps, I play them, so I may be basing my
decisions on a different criteria than someone who buys
according to the spec sheet.
Unreal this guy wants me to prove something I've heard with a spectrum
analyzer.

Anyway... I agree with your sentiment.

Jeff
Odin
2005-11-22 22:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Odin
Post by William Black
Post the details when you've finished...
I can *feel* the differences in amps that I sometimes
cannot
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Odin
hear (not necessarily a PTP vs PCB thing, just different
amps that are supposed to sound similar). The amp
reacts
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Odin
differently even though the sound is very similar. You
can't measure that feeling, but it makes me play
differently
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Odin
and do things I wouldn't do on the other amp. Of
course, I
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Odin
don't measure my amps, I play them, so I may be basing
my
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Odin
decisions on a different criteria than someone who buys
according to the spec sheet.
Unreal this guy wants me to prove something I've heard
with a spectrum
Post by PRS GEEK
analyzer.
Anyway... I agree with your sentiment.
Even two "identical" amps from the same manufacturer, made
the same year, etc... can sound and feel noticeably
different. They may very well test identical on a piece of
test equipment, but they aren't always the same. Same with
guitars, when you find the one you really like it's usually
not something you can easily define.
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-22 23:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well,
you
Post by PRS GEEK
can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to
a
Post by PRS GEEK
_lot_ of difference.
No.
The same circuit made by two different techniques sound and work exactly the
same.
What you're probably hearing is differences in the components, if there is
any...
You don't get differences from 'surface effect' until you get up around
20MHz, which is miles above hearing.
If you could hear a difference you could see it on a spectrum analyser, and
I've tried it, and you can't.
Now if you want to believe that you can hear a difference then go ahead,
it's your money and if you spend a shed load of cash on something then you
obviously need to believe that you're right...
There's a crew of snake oil salesman waiting right now trying to sell people
directional guitar leads and boutique 30 watt amps for £1,000 each and even
thermionic rectifiers, which were well out of use by the time the real
classic stuff came along in the 'sixties.
Go ahead, make their day...
Great post. Thanks. mvm
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-22 23:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well, you
can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to a
_lot_ of difference.
"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". It's
your wallet, vote with it. ;-).
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 01:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by 5F6A & MM2275-150
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well,
you can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had
with circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add
up to a _lot_ of difference.
"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". It's
your wallet, vote with it. ;-).
I don't "imagine" what I hear with my own ears.

I've had plenty of good guitars and amps in my years and logged plenty of
gig hours. More than most people I know that don't do it for a living. I
KNOW what a good amp sounds like. The best amps I've ever heard and played
have been PTP amps. Mostly Plexis but I'm a Marshall fan. I feel the
immediacy, period. I hear the harmonics. I get that beautiful feedback
whenever I want.

I also have one of the "good" AC15 RI's... That thing is circuit board. I
played it next to a vintage AC15. Not even in the same league. I also have a
Deluxe Reverb RI, same deal. Not even close.

I do NOT need a spectrum analyzer to tell me what differences I've heard.

To date, I don't own a PTP amp. I really have the desire for a Plexi style.
Tell me where I can hear a circuit board amp that sounds like a 1974X RI, or
a Germino, et al...

Jeff
Les Cargill
2005-11-23 05:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well, you
can't. I feel bad for ya!
Most people won't have the opportunity to do that right. I remember
a production Deluxe RI right next to to Victoria Deluxe. I
could only tell a difference in the speaker.
Post by PRS GEEK
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to a
_lot_ of difference.
I doubt that. But PTP looks better, and it's easier to fix. What
happens is that the engineering in Kuftomme PTP guitar amps
is generally better, because they cost more and are
a product of a lifestyle business and because the
transformers might be better.

If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.

But then again, the f*567@#$ input jack on my gosh darned
Fender needs replaced, and it's gonna be Painful poking
wires into the circuit board. But not too bad.

--
Les Cargill
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 05:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well,
you can't. I feel bad for ya!
Most people won't have the opportunity to do that right. I remember
a production Deluxe RI right next to to Victoria Deluxe. I
could only tell a difference in the speaker.
That's you man... Not me. I've been almost exactly there... I heard it way
different. My DR RI vs. an original BF DR.. Uhhh, no comparison...
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had
with circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add
up to a _lot_ of difference.
I doubt that. But PTP looks better, and it's easier to fix. What
happens is that the engineering in Kuftomme PTP guitar amps
is generally better, because they cost more and are
a product of a lifestyle business and because the
transformers might be better.
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning as me
and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all this stuff and
you'd be convinced...

Honestly, I don't wanna embarrass myself here, but I'm DEFinitely sure about
what I'm saying... You can read the spectrum analyzation charts all you
want... These things have been in my casa and I hear and feel the
difference. Me and my geetar buddies kinda' have a small clue...
Post by Les Cargill
If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.
Fender needs replaced, and it's gonna be Painful poking
wires into the circuit board. But not too bad.
But man, yer missin the point... I ain't gonna fix the damned things, I'm
gonna play them and they sound better.

Lord, who you gotta' be to prove you actually heard it?

I'm sure I'm talking to guys that have a Line6 and swear they sound like the
real thing...

Jeff
William Black
2005-11-23 10:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
what I'm saying... You can read the spectrum analyzation charts all you
want... These things have been in my casa and I hear and feel the
difference. Me and my geetar buddies kinda' have a small clue...
It's your money son.

Spend it how you want..

Me, I have a bridge for sale...
Post by PRS GEEK
I'm sure I'm talking to guys that have a Line6 and swear they sound like the
real thing...
You really don't want me going on about the technicalities of digital
modeling and WHY they don't quite sound the same,
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 13:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by PRS GEEK
what I'm saying... You can read the spectrum analyzation charts all you
want... These things have been in my casa and I hear and feel the
difference. Me and my geetar buddies kinda' have a small clue...
It's your money son.
I have my own 20 year old son and my dad passed in '92... Yeah, my $ is my
$...
Post by William Black
Spend it how you want..
Thanks for yer permission.
Post by William Black
Me, I have a bridge for sale...
Just curious... Do you play seriously, or just a hobby?
Post by William Black
Post by PRS GEEK
I'm sure I'm talking to guys that have a Line6 and swear they sound like
the
Post by PRS GEEK
real thing...
You really don't want me going on about the technicalities of digital
modeling and WHY they don't quite sound the same,
Well, I'm sure we would agree on most of that discussion.

Point is, I hear and feel a difference. It's not snake oil. If it
components, then it's components. But there's a difference.

Jeff
William Black
2005-11-23 14:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Me, I have a bridge for sale...
Just curious... Do you play seriously, or just a hobby?
Depends what you mean.

I play for money and for my own entertainment.

Not as much as I did as I'm retired now.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Les Cargill
2005-11-23 19:13:33 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by PRS GEEK
Point is, I hear and feel a difference. It's not snake oil. If it
components, then it's components. But there's a difference.
EXACTLY!
Post by PRS GEEK
Jeff
--
Les Cargill
Trevor Hyde
2005-11-23 12:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning
as me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all this
stuff and you'd be convinced...
The problem here is that it is not a controlled comparison. You are
probably correct: most PTP amps sound better than most PCB amps. However,
the real difference between them is likely not PTP vs. PCB. There are very
few circumstances where an amp went from PTP to PCB construction without a
bunch of other changes, such as CC resistors, smaller transformers, poly
caps, SS rectifiers, etc., all of which would have a more significant
impact upon the sound. Most of these changes were not to improve sound, but
to cut costs. The PCB is likely just a symptom of wider-scale cost-cutting
measures.

I think it was Hi-Watt that was known for having really long electrical
cords. The owner sold controlling interest in the company to some
investors, who immediately shortened the cords to save money. The original
owner said "the company will be out of business in a year with an attitude
like that." The investors insisted that no one would care about the shorter
cords. Both ended up being correct. Visible cost-cutting measures are often
a sign of a deeper problem with quality, even when they have no direct
impact upon the quality themselves.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 13:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning
as me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all this
stuff and you'd be convinced...
The problem here is that it is not a controlled comparison. You are
probably correct: most PTP amps sound better than most PCB amps. However,
the real difference between them is likely not PTP vs. PCB. There are very
few circumstances where an amp went from PTP to PCB construction without a
bunch of other changes, such as CC resistors, smaller transformers, poly
caps, SS rectifiers, etc., all of which would have a more significant
impact upon the sound. Most of these changes were not to improve sound, but
to cut costs. The PCB is likely just a symptom of wider-scale cost-cutting
measures.
Well, you're only proving my point. It doesn't matter to me what the reasons
are.
Post by Trevor Hyde
I think it was Hi-Watt that was known for having really long electrical
cords. The owner sold controlling interest in the company to some
investors, who immediately shortened the cords to save money. The original
owner said "the company will be out of business in a year with an attitude
like that." The investors insisted that no one would care about the shorter
cords. Both ended up being correct. Visible cost-cutting measures are often
a sign of a deeper problem with quality, even when they have no direct
impact upon the quality themselves.
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the original
Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?

Jeff
William Black
2005-11-23 14:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the original
Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Because they can flog an inferior product for as much money.

There's been a recent conversation on another group about Cornford and the
technical shortcuts they've taken recently.

The original 'loud' guitar amps were designed and built mainly by men who'd
been trained by the military in WWII and they used the construction
techniques and components they were familiar with.

However those components and techniques were expensive.

Marshall used to be a small factory in Essex run and manned by such men,
now it's a large consumer product manufacturer.

Consumer electronics use different components and technology, remember
we're talking about an industry where 'elegant design' means 'cheap and easy
to make'.

Amps are made to fit a 'price point' and a 'market segment' rather than
designed from the ground up.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 16:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Post by PRS GEEK
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the
original
Post by PRS GEEK
Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Because they can flog an inferior product for as much money.
There's been a recent conversation on another group about Cornford and the
technical shortcuts they've taken recently.
The original 'loud' guitar amps were designed and built mainly by men who'd
been trained by the military in WWII and they used the construction
techniques and components they were familiar with.
However those components and techniques were expensive.
Marshall used to be a small factory in Essex run and manned by such men,
now it's a large consumer product manufacturer.
Consumer electronics use different components and technology, remember
we're talking about an industry where 'elegant design' means 'cheap and easy
to make'.
Amps are made to fit a 'price point' and a 'market segment' rather than
designed from the ground up.
If you buy little but always the highest quality you can get your hands
on *USED* (except N.O.S. tubes of course), you'll usually do well. Like
stocks- buy quality and hold it forever. Tough advice in a throw away
world, I know...
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 17:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Post by PRS GEEK
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the
original
Post by PRS GEEK
Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Because they can flog an inferior product for as much money.
There's been a recent conversation on another group about Cornford and the
technical shortcuts they've taken recently.
The original 'loud' guitar amps were designed and built mainly by men who'd
been trained by the military in WWII and they used the construction
techniques and components they were familiar with.
However those components and techniques were expensive.
Marshall used to be a small factory in Essex run and manned by such men,
now it's a large consumer product manufacturer.
Consumer electronics use different components and technology, remember
we're talking about an industry where 'elegant design' means 'cheap and easy
to make'.
Amps are made to fit a 'price point' and a 'market segment' rather than
designed from the ground up.
Yeah, I know all that... Still, even if there's a component quality
difference I can hear and feel it.

How can you deny me what I already know. I'm not disagreeing there's no
component quality difference. But those components are exactly why this
discussion is taking place. There IS a difference.

Jeff
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 17:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Keith Adams
Post by PRS GEEK
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the
original
Post by PRS GEEK
Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Because they can flog an inferior product for as much money.
There's been a recent conversation on another group about Cornford and the
technical shortcuts they've taken recently.
The original 'loud' guitar amps were designed and built mainly by men who'd
been trained by the military in WWII and they used the construction
techniques and components they were familiar with.
However those components and techniques were expensive.
Marshall used to be a small factory in Essex run and manned by such men,
now it's a large consumer product manufacturer.
Consumer electronics use different components and technology, remember
we're talking about an industry where 'elegant design' means 'cheap and easy
to make'.
Amps are made to fit a 'price point' and a 'market segment' rather than
designed from the ground up.
Yeah, I know all that... Still, even if there's a component quality
difference I can hear and feel it.
How can you deny me what I already know. I'm not disagreeing there's no
component quality difference. But those components are exactly why this
discussion is taking place. There IS a difference.
Jeff
So pay for it and shut up.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 17:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by 5F6A & MM2275-150
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Keith Adams
Post by PRS GEEK
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the
original
Post by PRS GEEK
Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Because they can flog an inferior product for as much money.
There's been a recent conversation on another group about Cornford and the
technical shortcuts they've taken recently.
The original 'loud' guitar amps were designed and built mainly by men who'd
been trained by the military in WWII and they used the construction
techniques and components they were familiar with.
However those components and techniques were expensive.
Marshall used to be a small factory in Essex run and manned by such men,
now it's a large consumer product manufacturer.
Consumer electronics use different components and technology, remember
we're talking about an industry where 'elegant design' means 'cheap and easy
to make'.
Amps are made to fit a 'price point' and a 'market segment' rather than
designed from the ground up.
Yeah, I know all that... Still, even if there's a component quality
difference I can hear and feel it.
How can you deny me what I already know. I'm not disagreeing there's no
component quality difference. But those components are exactly why this
discussion is taking place. There IS a difference.
Jeff
So pay for it and shut up.
Pardon me? I thought you were the sensible one in this "conversation"?

People can't discuss without saying "shut up"?

Jeff
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 18:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by 5F6A & MM2275-150
Post by PRS GEEK
Yeah, I know all that... Still, even if there's a component quality
difference I can hear and feel it.
How can you deny me what I already know. I'm not disagreeing there's no
component quality difference. But those components are exactly why this
discussion is taking place. There IS a difference.
Jeff
So pay for it and shut up.
Pardon me? I thought you were the sensible one in this "conversation"?
People can't discuss without saying "shut up"?
Jeff
"Shut and play your guitar" -Frank Zappa

All my money is well spent and heavily researched. Jeff

;-) Research this;

NAME OF THIS THREAD; "What is the best current production tube amp?"

A: The BadCat HotCat30

http://www.badcatamps.com/include.asp?pid=2
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 18:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by 5F6A & MM2275-150
"Shut and play your guitar" -Frank Zappa
I do play my guitar...
--
Jeff

http://tinyurl.com/8sz9r
Trevor Hyde
2005-11-23 16:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning
as me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all
this stuff and you'd be convinced...
The problem here is that it is not a controlled comparison. You are
probably correct: most PTP amps sound better than most PCB amps.
However, the real difference between them is likely not PTP vs. PCB.
There are very few circumstances where an amp went from PTP to PCB
construction without a bunch of other changes, such as CC resistors,
smaller transformers, poly caps, SS rectifiers, etc., all of which
would have a more significant impact upon the sound. Most of these
changes were not to improve sound, but
to cut costs. The PCB is likely just a symptom of wider-scale
cost-cutting measures.
Well, you're only proving my point. It doesn't matter to me what the
reasons are.
I wasn't disagreeing. I was just trying to point out that the argument was
likely moot, and that all parties could probably agree. The older amps have
better mojo, although it is likely from other factors besides the PCB/PTP
difference.
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
I think it was Hi-Watt that was known for having really long
electrical cords. The owner sold controlling interest in the company
to some investors, who immediately shortened the cords to save money.
The original owner said "the company will be out of business in a
year with an attitude like that." The investors insisted that no one
would care about the shorter
cords. Both ended up being correct. Visible cost-cutting measures are often
a sign of a deeper problem with quality, even when they have no
direct impact upon the quality themselves.
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the
original Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Price. I called around local places last week to ask if anyone had an AC30.
The used places said that they absolutely never get people selling old
ones, and one of the places that sold them new was bragging about the new
ones. He said that VOX reissued the AC30 a little while ago, but priced
them too high, and they weren't selling. They redesigned them to be
affordable (i.e., made in China w/PCBs), and now they are moving like
hotcakes. The reviews on Harmony Central clearly indicate that the new
AC30s do not sound as good as the classic ones or the PTP reissue, but $3K
vs. $1K for an amp makes a huge difference in the market health of the
product.

People do make high quality PCB amps, but they don't cut other corners so
they end up being as expensive as hand-wired PTP amps. Egnater, Bogner,
Budda, and Soldano are examples; they make incredible amps, and the circuit
boards are PCB. They also cost an arm and a leg. Buddas, in particular, are
known to capture both a plexi-ish brown sounds and the VOX clean sound.
Budda started with PTP amps, but switched to PCB because they said is was
easier to make them run quietly. Mesa/Boogie also uses PCBs, although there
may be more disagreement over the quality than with the small boutique
amps.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 17:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning
as me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all
this stuff and you'd be convinced...
The problem here is that it is not a controlled comparison. You are
probably correct: most PTP amps sound better than most PCB amps.
However, the real difference between them is likely not PTP vs. PCB.
There are very few circumstances where an amp went from PTP to PCB
construction without a bunch of other changes, such as CC resistors,
smaller transformers, poly caps, SS rectifiers, etc., all of which
would have a more significant impact upon the sound. Most of these
changes were not to improve sound, but
to cut costs. The PCB is likely just a symptom of wider-scale
cost-cutting measures.
Well, you're only proving my point. It doesn't matter to me what the
reasons are.
I wasn't disagreeing. I was just trying to point out that the argument was
likely moot, and that all parties could probably agree. The older amps have
better mojo, although it is likely from other factors besides the PCB/PTP
difference.
OK... I gotcha then... I'm just defending that I'm not hearing "snake oil"
and there ARE differences, and to me, they aren't small...

But several messages ago I was wrong and spending my money on snake oil. I
haven't laid down that kinda' cash for PTP, but if I did, I wouldn't be
buying something inferior to ANY PCB amp I've ever played. If I indeed
choose/chose the correct PTP amp...
--
Jeff

http://tinyurl.com/8sz9r
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 17:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning
as me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all
this stuff and you'd be convinced...
The problem here is that it is not a controlled comparison. You are
probably correct: most PTP amps sound better than most PCB amps.
However, the real difference between them is likely not PTP vs. PCB.
There are very few circumstances where an amp went from PTP to PCB
construction without a bunch of other changes, such as CC resistors,
smaller transformers, poly caps, SS rectifiers, etc., all of which
would have a more significant impact upon the sound. Most of these
changes were not to improve sound, but
to cut costs. The PCB is likely just a symptom of wider-scale
cost-cutting measures.
Well, you're only proving my point. It doesn't matter to me what the
reasons are.
I wasn't disagreeing. I was just trying to point out that the argument was
likely moot, and that all parties could probably agree. The older amps have
better mojo, although it is likely from other factors besides the PCB/PTP
difference.
OK... I gotcha then... I'm just defending that I'm not hearing "snake oil"
and there ARE differences, and to me, they aren't small...
But several messages ago I was wrong and spending my money on snake oil. I
haven't laid down that kinda' cash for PTP, but if I did, I wouldn't be
buying something inferior to ANY PCB amp I've ever played. If I indeed
choose/chose the correct PTP amp...
You sound like a guy looking to justify always getting ripped off. Sell
it to your wife ;-)...like Chuck Berry and Bo Diddly ever sat backstage
and said "gee- 'bro, I can't go on...it's just not PTP". Ack ack ack-
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 17:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning
as me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all
this stuff and you'd be convinced...
The problem here is that it is not a controlled comparison. You are
probably correct: most PTP amps sound better than most PCB amps.
However, the real difference between them is likely not PTP vs. PCB.
There are very few circumstances where an amp went from PTP to PCB
construction without a bunch of other changes, such as CC resistors,
smaller transformers, poly caps, SS rectifiers, etc., all of which
would have a more significant impact upon the sound. Most of these
changes were not to improve sound, but
to cut costs. The PCB is likely just a symptom of wider-scale
cost-cutting measures.
Well, you're only proving my point. It doesn't matter to me what the
reasons are.
I wasn't disagreeing. I was just trying to point out that the argument was
likely moot, and that all parties could probably agree. The older amps have
better mojo, although it is likely from other factors besides the PCB/PTP
difference.
OK... I gotcha then... I'm just defending that I'm not hearing "snake
oil" and there ARE differences, and to me, they aren't small...
But several messages ago I was wrong and spending my money on snake oil.
I haven't laid down that kinda' cash for PTP, but if I did, I wouldn't be
buying something inferior to ANY PCB amp I've ever played. If I indeed
choose/chose the correct PTP amp...
You sound like a guy looking to justify always getting ripped off. Sell it
to your wife ;-)...like Chuck Berry and Bo Diddly ever sat backstage and
said "gee- 'bro, I can't go on...it's just not PTP". Ack ack ack-
You're missing the point dude... I don't use PTP live. I currently use a
Mesa Stiletto. It's fine for that application and many others I'm sure.

I do own PTP hand wired mic preamps that cost a LOT more than some of these
amps we're talking about... I guarantee they don't sound like the PCB crap
you get at Guitar Center. Listen, if you can get by with lesser go ahead.
All my money is well spent and heavily researched.

Jeff
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 17:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Hyde
Post by PRS GEEK
Then why doesn't someone make a PCB amp that sounds as good as the
original Plexi, Vox, or DR RI?
Price. I called around local places last week to ask if anyone had an AC30.
The used places said that they absolutely never get people selling old
ones, and one of the places that sold them new was bragging about the new
ones. He said that VOX reissued the AC30 a little while ago, but priced
them too high, and they weren't selling. They redesigned them to be
affordable (i.e., made in China w/PCBs), and now they are moving like
hotcakes. The reviews on Harmony Central clearly indicate that the new
AC30s do not sound as good as the classic ones or the PTP reissue, but $3K
vs. $1K for an amp makes a huge difference in the market health of the
product.
Yeah, I know and understand that part before I posted a single word. There
IS a market for "better stuff"...
Post by Trevor Hyde
People do make high quality PCB amps, but they don't cut other corners so
they end up being as expensive as hand-wired PTP amps. Egnater, Bogner,
Budda, and Soldano are examples; they make incredible amps, and the circuit
boards are PCB. They also cost an arm and a leg. Buddas, in particular, are
known to capture both a plexi-ish brown sounds and the VOX clean sound.
Budda started with PTP amps, but switched to PCB because they said is was
easier to make them run quietly. Mesa/Boogie also uses PCBs, although there
may be more disagreement over the quality than with the small boutique
amps.
Yes, I played almost all those amps extensively and liked/disliked them all
for variuos reasons. Yes, they were all good hybrids for the most part
IMO...

The amp that sold me was the Marshall 1974X Reissue (EL 84, Class A I
think). I ALmost bought that puppy. Bad comparison, but I wanted to throw my
"good" AC 15 RI out the door after I heard that amp. My AC 15 has the Blue
Dog (or whatever) and the Marshall had their special 20-25 watter in there.
Similar amps I suppose, but NO comparison in touch sensitivity, getting that
feedback thing, overall sweet overtones, etc... I liked that little Marshall
in the semi-clean range as much as any amp I've ever played. I couldn't get
that amp to sound bad.
--
Jeff

http://tinyurl.com/8sz9r
Les Cargill
2005-11-23 19:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well,
you can't. I feel bad for ya!
Most people won't have the opportunity to do that right. I remember
a production Deluxe RI right next to to Victoria Deluxe. I
could only tell a difference in the speaker.
That's you man... Not me. I've been almost exactly there... I heard it way
different. My DR RI vs. an original BF DR.. Uhhh, no comparison...
I actually did that one, too. I couldn't tell the diference
at all. They both sounded exactly the same. I had
somebody randomly shuffle 'em. I had to look at
the back to tell.
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had
with circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add
up to a _lot_ of difference.
I doubt that. But PTP looks better, and it's easier to fix. What
happens is that the engineering in Kuftomme PTP guitar amps
is generally better, because they cost more and are
a product of a lifestyle business and because the
transformers might be better.
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning as me
and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all this stuff and
you'd be convinced...
That'd be about the only way to do it. If I heard it,
you'd know about it.

Remember, I looked at dozens of
individual Blues Deluxes before I bought mine.
Individual *amps* wil sound more different then
a random Deluxe Reverb and a DR reissue.

But it's entirely possible you *do*
hear the difference. But that difference is
very unlikely to be explained by PTP versus PC
board.
Post by PRS GEEK
Honestly, I don't wanna embarrass myself here, but I'm DEFinitely sure about
what I'm saying... You can read the spectrum analyzation charts all you
want... These things have been in my casa and I hear and feel the
difference. Me and my geetar buddies kinda' have a small clue...
There's nothing that can't be explained by unit to unit
variation and possibly observer bias.

*Electrically*, there's nothing to recommend
PTP. Bad PC board layout is bad layout, and that
will be audible, but PTP *itself* shouldn't sound
different.
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Les Cargill
If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.
Fender needs replaced, and it's gonna be Painful poking
wires into the circuit board. But not too bad.
But man, yer missin the point... I ain't gonna fix the damned things, I'm
gonna play them and they sound better.
Lord, who you gotta' be to prove you actually heard it?
You can't prove you actually heard it. That's the point :)

If I had a Gulfstream, we could chat over cabernet and
compare/contrast. But I don't have one a' them.
Post by PRS GEEK
I'm sure I'm talking to guys that have a Line6 and swear they sound like the
real thing...
I would imagine you are, in come cases. FWIW - Line6: not even
Close, but Close Enough for some stuff (where grainy don't
matter ).
Post by PRS GEEK
Jeff
--
Les Cargill
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 20:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Les Cargill
Most people won't have the opportunity to do that right. I remember
a production Deluxe RI right next to to Victoria Deluxe. I
could only tell a difference in the speaker.
That's you man... Not me. I've been almost exactly there... I heard it
way different. My DR RI vs. an original BF DR.. Uhhh, no comparison...
I actually did that one, too. I couldn't tell the diference
at all. They both sounded exactly the same. I had
somebody randomly shuffle 'em. I had to look at
the back to tell.
First thing I could tell was in regards to immediacy and bloom. Especially
on open chords. Mind you, you may never hear the difference in a mix of
music but it was there.
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
They sound a LOT better too... Maybe you fellas aren't as discerning as
me and my friends. We'd gang up on you guys in a room with all this stuff
and you'd be convinced...
That'd be about the only way to do it. If I heard it,
you'd know about it.
I'm sure that if you were in the same room I was (one every single occasion)
you'd know what I heard and felt.
Post by Les Cargill
But it's entirely possible you *do*
hear the difference. But that difference is
very unlikely to be explained by PTP versus PC
board.
Post by PRS GEEK
Honestly, I don't wanna embarrass myself here, but I'm DEFinitely sure
about what I'm saying... You can read the spectrum analyzation charts all
you want... These things have been in my casa and I hear and feel the
difference. Me and my geetar buddies kinda' have a small clue...
There's nothing that can't be explained by unit to unit
variation and possibly observer bias.
*Electrically*, there's nothing to recommend
PTP. Bad PC board layout is bad layout, and that
will be audible, but PTP *itself* shouldn't sound
different.
Last time beating this horse into oblivian: I've heard it on several
occasions. And it was never even close.
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Les Cargill
If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.
I don't know man... There's no PC boards on my Crane Song and Phoenix mic
pres, but there's one in my Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster. I use the
Focusrite for ride cymbal sometimes and that's about it. I've also used it
on kik... It's the same sorta thing. The good stuff is generally fuller and
more dynamic than the Focusrite with all it's glorious PC boards.
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
Lord, who you gotta' be to prove you actually heard it?
You can't prove you actually heard it. That's the point :)
Neither can the other side... Maybe the best examples are my mic pre's...
Post by Les Cargill
If I had a Gulfstream, we could chat over cabernet and
compare/contrast. But I don't have one a' them.
LOL... How about a good single malt Scotch?
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
I'm sure I'm talking to guys that have a Line6 and swear they sound like
the real thing...
I would imagine you are, in come cases. FWIW - Line6: not even Close, but
Close Enough for some stuff (where grainy don't
matter ).
Well, I have no idea who I'm talking to in these cross-posted threads, so I
should know better.

Jeff
JMK
2005-11-23 14:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.
So probably the best way to do a PTP to PCB comparison would be
to take a PCB amp apart, wire it PTP and compare.

I am sure that right now I've ruined someone's evenings for the
next several weeks.

JMK
Les Cargill
2005-11-23 19:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMK
Post by Les Cargill
If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.
So probably the best way to do a PTP to PCB comparison would be
to take a PCB amp apart, wire it PTP and compare.
Right. But you still have to somehow figure out what sort of PTP
configuration, and control that.
Post by JMK
I am sure that right now I've ruined someone's evenings for the
next several weeks.
Not mine :)
Post by JMK
JMK
--
Les Cargill
jh
2005-11-23 17:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Most people won't have the opportunity to do that right. I remember
a production Deluxe RI right next to to Victoria Deluxe. I
could only tell a difference in the speaker.
WHAAAT? You did not hear any difference between a Deluxe Reverb RI and a
tweed deluxe?

Those are comnpletely different amps with even *measurable* differences.
e.g.
- frequency response due to the existence/abscence of tone controls
- phase inverter (distortion patterns)
- NFB loop

These amps are as different as night and day are. No matter of their
construction.....

puh

regards

Jochen
Post by Les Cargill
Post by PRS GEEK
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to a
_lot_ of difference.
I doubt that. But PTP looks better, and it's easier to fix. What
happens is that the engineering in Kuftomme PTP guitar amps
is generally better, because they cost more and are
a product of a lifestyle business and because the
transformers might be better.
If a PC board amp sucks, it's probably not because it's
PC board.
Fender needs replaced, and it's gonna be Painful poking
wires into the circuit board. But not too bad.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
2005-11-23 19:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by jh
Post by Les Cargill
Most people won't have the opportunity to do that right. I remember
a production Deluxe RI right next to to Victoria Deluxe. I
could only tell a difference in the speaker.
WHAAAT? You did not hear any difference between a Deluxe Reverb RI and a
tweed deluxe?
Not in a quicky comparison. Geez, it'd of took days to really
run 'em through paces.
Post by jh
Those are comnpletely different amps with even *measurable* differences.
e.g.
- frequency response due to the existence/abscence of tone controls
- phase inverter (distortion patterns)
- NFB loop
Oh yeah - completely different. The two I saw sounded a whole
lot the same. Like I said, the speaker made more
difference.
Post by jh
These amps are as different as night and day are. No matter of their
construction.....
Yup. Completely different amps.

Lemme say this - the Vicky did not have a serious, head-and-
shoulders-above thing on the DR RI.
Post by jh
puh
regards
Jochen
<snip>

--
Les Cargill
Jim Anable
2005-11-23 19:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new Vox,Marshall,Fender
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
There's no difference to the sound.
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well, you
can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had with
circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add up to a
_lot_ of difference.
You'd have to be comparing the exact same circuit, with exact same
components. Don't fall into the trap of comparing "reissue" amps to
vintage amps. The reissues are NOT using the exact same transformers,
speakers, etc. For that reason, an old fish board Super Reverb will
sound different than a PCB reissue, but it may have nothing to do with
the board itself.

One of my biggest complaints is board mounted pots and jacks. They have
a much higher failure rate. I don't have a problem with circuit boards
in my amps, if they have flying leads.
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 20:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Anable
Post by PRS GEEK
That's absurd... I can tell a huge difference. If you can't, then, well,
you can't. I feel bad for ya!
Everyone knows there's an immediacy with a PTP amp that canNOT be had
with circuit boards. Not to mention many other little things that all add
up to a _lot_ of difference.
You'd have to be comparing the exact same circuit, with exact same
components. Don't fall into the trap of comparing "reissue" amps to
vintage amps.
Yeah, I realize this as fact.. Thing is the 1974X is PTP, sounds great and
has an immediacy that no other Marshall (except a real Plexi) I've ever
heard has... So, for my purposes the RI 1974X is a good example, especially
compared to the AC 15 RI with PCB circuits.
Post by Jim Anable
The reissues are NOT using the exact same transformers, speakers, etc.
For that reason, an old fish board Super Reverb will sound different than
a PCB reissue, but it may have nothing to do with the board itself.
That's exactly the reason I would have been happy with a 1974X rather than a
Reinhardt (sp) or one of those 18 watt kit amps, except the Marshall is
more, because it's a "Marshall".
Post by Jim Anable
One of my biggest complaints is board mounted pots and jacks. They have a
much higher failure rate. I don't have a problem with circuit boards in
my amps, if they have flying leads.
I don't mind them either. In fact, that's all I have. I've haven't owned a
PTP amp for over 30 years. They are fine for everything I use them for, but
I'd like to have one perfect little PTP amp for my studio.

Currently I own a 100 watt Mesa Stiletto, 100 watt JCM 2000, 1980 50 watt
Marshall JMP, Vox AC 15 RI, and a DR RI.

Used to own (in the last 15 years) about 6 different JCM 900's, from the
Dual Reverbs to the SLX and the tweeners, Dual Rectifier, Jubilee, Soldano
15 watter, Bogner Ecstacy, even a 5150... I could go on --- you get the
point. But I've also had a lot of vintage Marshalls, a couple Budda's,
vintage Fenders, Riveras, Matchless, blah blah, all in my house for extended
periods of time that I got to mess with. And, most of those amps I've
mentioned have been recorded by me and about a zillion different guitars.

I'm reading what I just wrote and my "posturing" rings of trying to prove
myself.

I'm stopping...
--
Jeff

http://tinyurl.com/8sz9r
The Chris
2005-11-22 18:20:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by Grant W. Petty
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're
all built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth
what they cost and really not production anyway. The new
Vox,Marshall,Fender are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and
circuit board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences
in the signal paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human
ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
There's no difference to the sound.
PCBs are more rugged, easier and cheaper to build, but require a
higher level of skill to work on when they require mending.
SMT stuff more so...
I'm sure there's a *slight* difference, but when one is playing distorted
guitar into a $99 SM-58 microphone being blasted out of Peavey PA
Bins.... I'd go for more rugged :)
Jdavyd Williams
2005-11-22 19:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Chris
I'm sure there's a *slight* difference, but when one is playing distorted
guitar into a $99 SM-58 microphone being blasted out of Peavey PA
Bins.... I'd go for more rugged :)
hah! we should add alt.guitar.effects to the header and start talking
about how big a difference your hands make.
The Chris
2005-11-22 19:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jdavyd Williams
Post by The Chris
I'm sure there's a *slight* difference, but when one is playing
distorted guitar into a $99 SM-58 microphone being blasted out of
Peavey PA Bins.... I'd go for more rugged :)
hah! we should add alt.guitar.effects to the header and start talking
about how big a difference your hands make.
The hands are constant though... My hands playing through a Bruno amp are
the same hands through a Peavey Bandit :)
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 18:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jdavyd Williams
Post by The Chris
I'm sure there's a *slight* difference, but when one is playing
distorted guitar into a $99 SM-58 microphone being blasted out of
Peavey PA Bins.... I'd go for more rugged :)
hah! we should add alt.guitar.effects to the header and start talking
about how big a difference your hands make.
Hmmm- So you think tone could be in the hands? ;-)
The Chris
2005-11-23 18:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by 5F6A & MM2275-150
Post by Jdavyd Williams
Post by The Chris
I'm sure there's a *slight* difference, but when one is playing
distorted guitar into a $99 SM-58 microphone being blasted out of
Peavey PA Bins.... I'd go for more rugged :)
hah! we should add alt.guitar.effects to the header and start talking
about how big a difference your hands make.
Hmmm- So you think tone could be in the hands? ;-)
Not when talking about amps... My point was, it's to minimal to be detected
in a rock setting when I'm just happy if the sound guy puts me at a decent
level. There isn't going to be some guy in the audience saying, "You know
why you can't hear him.... PC boards" :)

My tone is in my hands. I make every amp sound like crap - across the
board... :)
Keith Adams
2005-11-22 21:08:29 UTC
Permalink
If the people who heap praise on the virtues of a circuit board amp
owned or had ever owned a PTP or tag board amp then they would be
telling a different story. More so if they ever wanted to work on or
modify their amp to their own tastes. Try that on a circuit board amp
and see how smoothly it goes. I'm not saying that the new amps dont
sound good. Only that they're inferior. I've got several 30 year old
amps that probably sound better than when new. They've seen use
to.Unless one of the new amps is put away in a closet and
forgotten(speakers and electrolytic caps will still be history) they
wont be around and working 30 years from now. If they are then I'll
be dipped in do do,rolled in sand and deep fried.
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're all
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new
Vox,Marshall,Fender
Post by Keith Adams
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the
signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?

If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
jh
2005-11-22 21:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
If the people who heap praise on the virtues of a circuit board amp
owned or had ever owned a PTP or tag board amp then they would be
telling a different story. More so if they ever wanted to work on or
modify their amp to their own tastes. Try that on a circuit board amp
and see how smoothly it goes. I'm not saying that the new amps dont
sound good. Only that they're inferior. I've got several 30 year old
amps that probably sound better than when new. They've seen use
to.Unless one of the new amps is put away in a closet and
forgotten(speakers and electrolytic caps will still be history) they
wont be around and working 30 years from now. If they are then I'll
be dipped in do do,rolled in sand and deep fried.
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're
all
Post by Keith Adams
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new
Vox,Marshall,Fender
Post by Keith Adams
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
Hi Keith,
I can confirm that layout can make a *REAL* and *MEASURABLE* difference
in the performance of an amp
I designed a mike preamp years ago; the first of the layouts had cutoff
(-3dB) at aprox 12kHz; the *same* circuit with a diffent layout went to
40kHz.
q.e.d.??

Jochen
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-22 23:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
If the people who heap praise on the virtues of a circuit board amp
owned or had ever owned a PTP or tag board amp then they would be
telling a different story. More so if they ever wanted to work on or
modify their amp to their own tastes. Try that on a circuit board amp
and see how smoothly it goes. I'm not saying that the new amps dont
sound good. Only that they're inferior. I've got several 30 year old
amps that probably sound better than when new. They've seen use
to.Unless one of the new amps is put away in a closet and
forgotten(speakers and electrolytic caps will still be history) they
wont be around and working 30 years from now. If they are then I'll
be dipped in do do,rolled in sand and deep fried.
Post by Keith Adams
Theres no such thing as a good production amp made anymore. They're
all
Post by Keith Adams
built on circuit boards . Those that are hand wired arent worth what
they cost and really not production anyway. The new
Vox,Marshall,Fender
Post by Keith Adams
are all circuit board turds.
Could someone explain to me what the actual physical (as opposed to
psychic/mystical) difference is between hand wired circuits and circuit
board? Are the conductive/inductive/capacitive differences in the signal
paths REALLY large enough to be audible to the human ear?
If I lied and told you my circuit board amp was really hand wired
painstakingly by Tibetan monks, would it sound better?
Excellent point Keith. The answer is a common sense, NO. The music
industry is among the biggest ripoffs of the uneducated and phuctarded-
since Chevron with "Techron". It's designed to empty the wallets of
the 12 year old mind. Think "religion" (it's a business).

From manufacturers to service people, it is a can of snakes writhing
in oil.

The most deadly poster boy they all have going for them is the excellent
artist and player, Eric Johnson. Recent interviews I've read re; the
CD Bloom, indicate to me that privately, he seems to be admitting that
his entire "which battery" tone bit is symptiomatic of -ah an artist's
forgivable excess.

People generally use plastic when perspiring through chops improvement
gets tedious. I've done it- everyone here has. Most people have a
difficult time being honest with themselves, let alone the next guy.

Doubt it? mvm
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 17:47:17 UTC
Permalink
What is the best current production tube amp?

A: The BadCat HotCat
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 17:58:21 UTC
Permalink
What is the best current production tube amp?

A: The BadCat HotCat

http://www.badcatamps.com/include.asp?pid=2
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 18:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Koerner
What is the best current production tube amp?
A: The BadCat HotCat
http://www.badcatamps.com/include.asp?pid=2
Snake oil?

Jeff
5F6A & MM2275-150
2005-11-23 18:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Rich Koerner
What is the best current production tube amp?
A: The BadCat HotCat
http://www.badcatamps.com/include.asp?pid=2
Snake oil?
Jeff
Sorry- I'm straight! What you lube yer turd cutter with
is *your* business. btw-

http://www.badcatamps.com/

"All my money is well spent and heavily researched." -Jeff
[Keep telling yourself that -after you've tried the HotCat30
(not found in GC's)...Stiletto] ;-)AMF!
PRS GEEK
2005-11-23 18:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by 5F6A & MM2275-150
Post by PRS GEEK
Post by Rich Koerner
What is the best current production tube amp?
A: The BadCat HotCat
http://www.badcatamps.com/include.asp?pid=2
Snake oil?
Jeff
Sorry- I'm straight! What you lube yer turd cutter with
is *your* business. btw-
http://www.badcatamps.com/
"All my money is well spent and heavily researched." -Jeff
[Keep telling yourself that -after you've tried the HotCat30
(not found in GC's)...Stiletto] ;-)AMF!
I see, you're just a smart assed troll...

Jeff
smeghead
2005-10-10 22:02:13 UTC
Permalink
When you are ready, Grasshopper, the best amp will find you...
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
Doug
2005-10-10 23:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Dr Z amps are handwired and quite good.

For vintage, old Ampegs are the deal right now. 100 watt head for $500.
And they sound great, if you like Ampeg tone. Old Hiwatts are good too,
but pricier. Old Marshall Plexis have gotten expensive. There are lots
of old black and silverface Fenders around. Bandmasters are currently
the best dollar value.

The new reissues sound good. Marshall JTM45 and Bluesbreakers may be on
printed circuit boards but they sound great. The reissue 1974x is
handwired 18 watt Marshall. Expensive but sound great. All the Fender
reissues sound like Fender tube amps! Mesa Mark I reissue will get you
Santana's early tone.

There are literally tons of boutique handwired amps. Bad Cat, Top Hat,
Dr Z, Buddah, the list goes on and on.

No question that this is the golden years of amps. Lots of choices and
with Ebay a buyer can actually pick and choose through the old stuff.
Used to be you had to take whatever little your local pawn shop had,
which usually wasn't much. Yes prices have gone up, but a Bandmaster
Reverb can be bought for $500 and it sounds killer. So if you look
around, the selection is a bit overwhelming frankly.
Brian Hill
2005-10-10 23:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug
Dr Z amps are handwired and quite good.
For vintage, old Ampegs are the deal right now. 100 watt head for $500.
And they sound great, if you like Ampeg tone. Old Hiwatts are good too,
but pricier. Old Marshall Plexis have gotten expensive. There are lots
of old black and silverface Fenders around. Bandmasters are currently
the best dollar value.
The new reissues sound good. Marshall JTM45 and Bluesbreakers may be on
printed circuit boards but they sound great. The reissue 1974x is
handwired 18 watt Marshall. Expensive but sound great. All the Fender
reissues sound like Fender tube amps! Mesa Mark I reissue will get you
Santana's early tone.
There are literally tons of boutique handwired amps. Bad Cat, Top Hat,
Dr Z, Buddah, the list goes on and on.
No question that this is the golden years of amps. Lots of choices and
with Ebay a buyer can actually pick and choose through the old stuff.
Used to be you had to take whatever little your local pawn shop had,
which usually wasn't much. Yes prices have gone up, but a Bandmaster
Reverb can be bought for $500 and it sounds killer. So if you look
around, the selection is a bit overwhelming frankly.
A Bandmaster Reverb was my first serious tube amp. Loved that amp. Another
good buy is the old Fender Concert amps around $400-500.

B.H.
JMK
2005-10-12 02:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
I'm actually interested in this one. I intend to replace
my Katrina-ridden amp and am entertaining many possibilities.

JMK
John Stewart
2005-10-12 10:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hakon Sigurd
What do you consider to be the best current production tube guitar amp?
Why?
to listen to my father, a guitarist who never records with
http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/jarlsigurd/all_tracks/
Speaking as a salesman (sold HP, R&S, IFR & others) it is the one you are
selling that is best!

Cheers, John Stewart
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