Discussion:
You CANNOT rock it out live with a 15 watt amp!
(too old to reply)
Squier
2010-03-16 00:20:04 UTC
Permalink
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.

I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.


Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)

I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).

So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.

heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
n***@wt.net
2010-03-16 00:37:01 UTC
Permalink
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
  um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
  with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
   through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Depends if PA or not.. No real PA, you need manly amps.
Good PA and sound boy, you can use anything.
I know as far as dive bar gigs, you really need at least 40 watts
or so unless you want to get swamped by the "other" guy/s".
Fer instance, I have a Peavey Studio pro 112 which is S/S, but
rated at 65 watts.. Har... It's about equal to a dual 6V6 tube amp,
and it got swamped in the mix at dive bar gigs.. I need my
Super Reverb if I want to really hang.. It's just right really..
Course, I also have a 85-100 watt Traynor Bassmaster 2
plexi clone also.. It will brown the food if provoked.
It's got sort of a "Hiwatt" quality to it.. :/
IUnknown
2010-03-16 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
  um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
  with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
   through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Being able to 'cut through' has more to do with how your guitar is
EQ'ed .... You can dime a 120 watt quad 6l6 beast like a 6505+ and
if you scoop the mids, my little 40W combo is going cut through just
fine.

Is 15W enough for hardcore metal, pushing massive bass? I doubt
it.... The amp likely doesn't have enough oomph in the iron to
deliver that kind of bass response.

But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.

I'll play ZZ Top, Bad Company or some classics through a 15W amp ANY
TIME... You need to crank tube amps to get the good tone, anyway...
n***@wt.net
2010-03-16 03:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"... Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory.. :/
I think hard rockin music should make ones arm hairs
vibrate, and tickle the gizzard if you stand in front of the amps.
And to have the headroom to really have the good tone, and be
able to keep up with most amps that other players use, you
really oughta have one that will at least do 40 watts or so.
Not too many hard rockers will be using 15w amps unless
they are miking into a PA. Which is perfectly fine..
I might even prefer it as I can drive the amp hard for the tone
and let the PA driver control the volume.
Look at Eric Johnson.. You won't see him using a 15 watt
amp too often, and he's a tone head. Heck, I think he's pretty
much gone back to *twin* Twin Reverbs for clean, where I think
for a while he might have been using twin deluxe reverbs.
But listen to the tone... What 15 watt amp is going to get
that robust kind of clean sound? :( "2:10 on the clip"

Dirty rawk sound is much easier to manage with smaller amps
than good cleans. But even that will sound a tad thin on a low
power amp. Ain't got the arm hair mojo unless it's to a good
stout PA. A powerful drummer can cause low watt amps
to bob up and down in the water, and sometimes even drown. :(
Compared to him, I'm a lightweight with a single Super Reverb
for cleans. :/ But I can get pretty good tone with it and with
the four tens, it can tickle the gizzard a bit. :)
IUnknown
2010-03-16 15:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"...   Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory..  :/
I think hard rockin music should make ones arm hairs
vibrate, and tickle the gizzard if you stand in front of the amps.
And to have the headroom to really have the good tone, and be
able to keep up with most amps that other players use, you
really oughta have one that will at least do 40 watts or so.
Not too many hard rockers will be using 15w amps unless
they are miking into a PA. Which is perfectly fine..
I might even prefer it as I can drive the amp hard for the tone
and let the PA driver control the volume.
Look at Eric Johnson.. You won't see him using a 15 watt
amp too often, and he's a tone head. Heck, I think he's pretty
much gone back to *twin* Twin Reverbs for clean, where I think
for a while he might have been using twin deluxe reverbs.
But listen to the tone... What 15 watt amp is going to get
that robust kind of clean sound?   :(   "2:10 on the http://youtu.be/DFEFbzlu7tw
Dirty rawk sound is much easier to manage with smaller amps
than good cleans. But even that will sound a tad thin on a low
power amp. Ain't got the arm hair mojo unless it's to a good
stout PA. A powerful drummer can cause low watt amps
to bob up and down in the water, and sometimes even drown. :(
Compared to him, I'm a lightweight with a single Super Reverb
for cleans.  :/ But I can get pretty good tone with it and with
the four tens, it can tickle the gizzard a bit. :)
Hard Rockin' music?

Are we talking metallica or are we talking ZZ Top?
And where are you planning on playing?

The ONLY time you need more than 60 watts is if you are playing some
larger sized venues. I *know* for a fact that if you roll into a
southern california bar, and dime your 50W head, you are gonna go home
unpaid, and likely get turned off.

During rehearsals and gigs, I use one of two rigs...

1 - Peavey 6505+ head (120W) through a 4x12
2 - Line6 Spider Valve MKII 2x12 (40W)

For BOTH rigs, I *rarely* turn the amp above '3' .....

Power/SPL ratings to do no scale linear..... 80W is not 'twice as
loud' as 40W.... and that is why a 15W amp *CAN* cut it ...

The exception to this is if you need crazy headroom (pristine cleans,
and fat crunch) or if you are playing LARGE rooms and halls (which
something tells me that you are not).
s***@dog.com
2010-03-16 15:41:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:09:58 -0700 (PDT), IUnknown
Post by IUnknown
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"...   Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory..  :/
I think hard rockin music should make ones arm hairs
vibrate, and tickle the gizzard if you stand in front of the amps.
And to have the headroom to really have the good tone, and be
able to keep up with most amps that other players use, you
really oughta have one that will at least do 40 watts or so.
Not too many hard rockers will be using 15w amps unless
they are miking into a PA. Which is perfectly fine..
I might even prefer it as I can drive the amp hard for the tone
and let the PA driver control the volume.
Look at Eric Johnson.. You won't see him using a 15 watt
amp too often, and he's a tone head. Heck, I think he's pretty
much gone back to *twin* Twin Reverbs for clean, where I think
for a while he might have been using twin deluxe reverbs.
But listen to the tone... What 15 watt amp is going to get
that robust kind of clean sound?   :(   "2:10 on the http://youtu.be/DFEFbzlu7tw
Dirty rawk sound is much easier to manage with smaller amps
than good cleans. But even that will sound a tad thin on a low
power amp. Ain't got the arm hair mojo unless it's to a good
stout PA. A powerful drummer can cause low watt amps
to bob up and down in the water, and sometimes even drown. :(
Compared to him, I'm a lightweight with a single Super Reverb
for cleans.  :/ But I can get pretty good tone with it and with
the four tens, it can tickle the gizzard a bit. :)
Hard Rockin' music?
Are we talking metallica or are we talking ZZ Top?
And where are you planning on playing?
The ONLY time you need more than 60 watts is if you are playing some
larger sized venues. I *know* for a fact that if you roll into a
southern california bar, and dime your 50W head, you are gonna go home
unpaid, and likely get turned off.
During rehearsals and gigs, I use one of two rigs...
1 - Peavey 6505+ head (120W) through a 4x12
2 - Line6 Spider Valve MKII 2x12 (40W)
For BOTH rigs, I *rarely* turn the amp above '3' .....
Power/SPL ratings to do no scale linear..... 80W is not 'twice as
loud' as 40W.... and that is why a 15W amp *CAN* cut it ...
The exception to this is if you need crazy headroom (pristine cleans,
and fat crunch) or if you are playing LARGE rooms and halls (which
something tells me that you are not).
I have two Tiny Terror combos, and a special connecting bracket so I
can wear them as headphones.
n***@wt.net
2010-03-16 19:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by IUnknown
Hard Rockin' music?
Are we talking metallica or are we talking ZZ Top?
Doesn't matter..
Post by IUnknown
And where are you planning on playing?
Depends..
Post by IUnknown
The ONLY time you need more than 60 watts is if you are playing some
larger sized venues. I *know* for a fact that if you roll into a
southern california bar, and dime your 50W head, you are gonna go home
unpaid, and likely get turned off.
That's the whole point. If you have a stout enough amp, you don't
have to dime everything and the tone will be better unless
you require the dimed tube PA distortion. And like one said,
can be good for lead, but get old kinda quick for chords..
Post by IUnknown
During rehearsals and gigs, I use one of two rigs...
1 - Peavey 6505+ head (120W) through a 4x12
2 - Line6 Spider Valve MKII 2x12 (40W)
For BOTH rigs, I *rarely* turn the amp above '3' .....
I rest my case.. I usually don't have to run my
Super Reverb more than 3-4-5 either. Course, go
higher and it just sounds better with more tube
distortion. But the usual Fender will be stout at
the lower settings with the type vol pots they use.
Post by IUnknown
Power/SPL ratings to do no scale linear.....  80W is not 'twice as
loud' as 40W....  and that is why a 15W amp *CAN* cut it ...
And that's also why the larger amps are often not too
large unless one can't or won't keep it under control.
Post by IUnknown
The exception to this is if you need crazy headroom (pristine cleans,
and fat crunch)
That's it...
Post by IUnknown
or if you are playing LARGE rooms and halls (which
something tells me that you are not).
I'm not playing anywhere right now. But the last place I did
play was a bar with no real PA except for vocals. You needed
a fairly stout amp to keep afloat. 15 watts would not even
begin to cut it. Against the "other" guys, even if you can EQ
it to cut through, the tone is thin compared to the others
using medium power tube amps. And many were playing blues..
The ones with the best tone were using 40-50 watt range
amps.
I'm not saying you need a 100w Marshall stack.. I'm just saying
35-40-50 watts is a good compromise between cut-ability,
and tone.
My Fender is rated 45 w stock, but being I'm using a S/S
rectifier module, it probably does 50-55 w. And it's really
just about right as far as the players and amps used
at the last joint. I tried the 65w S/SPeavey, and it was a joke.
Sounded thin as a reed vs the more manly tube amps. I'll
never use it again for something like that.
Like I said, it's fairly equal to a dual 6V6 rig. I compared
it to a dual 6V6 Silvertone amp side by side and actually
preferred the Peavey S/S. So it's not because it was S/S.
It was because it just didn't have the headroom to keep
up with the other guys who were all using 35-40-50 watt
amps. The Silvertone would have drowned too..

I also know a thing or two from a bar owner standpoint.
When I hired bands, the ones that always got the best
reviews ran decent PA systems, and a sound board.
The ones that didn't have PA's, or had wimpy ones,
were not loud enough, and tone suffered. They had to
dime everything, and still couldn't keep up with the
spacious building and all the people roaming the place.
There were 2-3 bands that always kicked ass..
A large part was the manly PA and sound board..
The bigger the PA, the better they sounded. And
of course, the bigger the name, or band, usually the
better the PA. Of all the bands we had there, Kenny
Cordray always had the best sound. Why? Cuz he
leased a kick ass PA system, board, and had a
sound boy to run it all. Course, it doesn't hurt that
he can play pretty well too.. :/
And even with all that, he did not use wimpy 15 watt
amps. Neither did the other bands that had decent
PA's. 50 to 100 watt amps would be the norm.
I know one guy with a band who played there many
times, and they had a good PA which they owned
outright, and he liked 50w Legend amps..
The other guy usually ran a Marshall stack.
I don't know if it was 50 or 100w.. Probably 50..
s***@smallboots.com
2010-03-16 19:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by IUnknown
Hard Rockin' music?
Are we talking metallica or are we talking ZZ Top?
Doesn't matter..
Post by IUnknown
And where are you planning on playing?
Depends..
He didn't ask what you planed on wearing...
n***@wt.net
2010-03-16 19:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@smallboots.com
He didn't ask what you planed on wearing...
I've never planed on a wearing. Is that kind of like
filleting a speckled trout?
s***@smallboots.com
2010-03-17 12:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by s***@smallboots.com
He didn't ask what you planed on wearing...
I've never planed on a wearing. Is that kind of like
filleting a speckled trout?
You may need to increase your Aricept dosage as well.
n***@wt.net
2010-03-17 14:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@smallboots.com
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by s***@smallboots.com
He didn't ask what you planed on wearing...
I've never planed on a wearing. Is that kind of like
filleting a speckled trout?
You may need to increase your Aricept dosage as well.
Naw, I'm afraid Donepezil is not on my list of accepted
medications. Are you speaking from experience?
I don't have Alzheimer's yet, but I like to hear comments
from the ones that do for future reference.
s***@smallboots.com
2010-03-17 15:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by s***@smallboots.com
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by s***@smallboots.com
He didn't ask what you planed on wearing...
I've never planed on a wearing. Is that kind of like
filleting a speckled trout?
You may need to increase your Aricept dosage as well.
Naw, I'm afraid Donepezil is not on my list of accepted
medications. Are you speaking from experience?
I don't have Alzheimer's yet, but I like to hear comments
from the ones that do for future reference.
What a complete putz.
n***@wt.net
2010-03-17 20:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@smallboots.com
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by s***@smallboots.com
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by s***@smallboots.com
He didn't ask what you planed on wearing...
I've never planed on a wearing. Is that kind of like
filleting a speckled trout?
You may need to increase your Aricept dosage as well.
Naw, I'm afraid Donepezil is not on my list of accepted
medications. Are you speaking from experience?
I don't have Alzheimer's yet, but I like to hear comments
from the ones that do for future reference.
What a complete putz.
Boy, you just break my heart...
Let me get this right... You open your smart ass hole and
retort with two stupid ass remarks, neither of which make
much sense to any normal thinking person.. But you call me
a putz... :/
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 15:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"... Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory.. :/
in a Utopian society too. Two guitars will almost always devolve into
volume wars, because one or neither of the players has learned how to back
down when the other guy takes a solo. Bass players never turn down and rock
drummers generally have two speeds... louder and faster.

I saw one band in a hi class lounge once that was doing the all-electronic
thing. Lectronic drums and the bass and guitar had FX floor units that ran
direct into the PA. No amps anywhere. They were playing Pearl Jam and shit
like that, at volumes the lawyers could discuss business over.

Seemed like a strange gig but the guys said the pay was excellent.
notbob
2010-03-16 22:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
in a Utopian society too. Two guitars will almost always devolve into
volume wars, because one or neither of the players has learned how to back
down when the other guy takes a solo. Bass players never turn down and rock
drummers generally have two speeds... louder and faster.
I've lamented this volume nonsense for decades. When I started
playing back in high school, ya' wrung what you brung. The loudest
kid on the block was a Fender Dual Showman with twin 15" JBLs and
everone else played through piggy back 2x12s like Bandmasters and
Bassmans, Brit bands thru Vox AC30s. This is exactly what was played
thru on the Beach Boys Concert Album (1964) recorded live at the
Sacramento Memorial Auditorium, capacity 4,000. One amp per BB! No
one had any trouble hearing or even recording them.

This volume nonsense reached total absurdity when I went to see George
Thorogood and Little Feat at the Concord Pavillion after the sound
system had been rebuilt to include the then new sub-woofer class of
speakers. What at one time was a World class acoustic venue was now a
joke. The walls of amps miked thru the revamped sound system
completely distroyed the best outdoor arena on the West Coast. I am
not exaggerating when I say I could not hear George AT ALL!. Not one
single note. The bass and drums drowned out everything, including,
seemingly, my ability to taste or smell!!. ;)

That was pretty much the end of my attending live concerts. I quit
going to anything but small venues for just the reasons we are
discussing, too much volume. If I want punishing wads of volume, I'll
go listen to an F-4 Phantom jet run up its afterburners. Them suckers
will have you cringing in aural pain from 300 yds away. :|

nb
jtees4
2010-03-17 23:05:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:38:51 -0400, Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"... Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory.. :/
in a Utopian society too. Two guitars will almost always devolve into
volume wars, because one or neither of the players has learned how to back
down when the other guy takes a solo. Bass players never turn down and rock
drummers generally have two speeds... louder and faster.
I saw one band in a hi class lounge once that was doing the all-electronic
thing. Lectronic drums and the bass and guitar had FX floor units that ran
direct into the PA. No amps anywhere. They were playing Pearl Jam and shit
like that, at volumes the lawyers could discuss business over.
Seemed like a strange gig but the guys said the pay was excellent.
Your volume wars comment reminded me of someone...it is a family
friend so I am kind of expected to jam with him when we go visit. I
hate it. I basically back him up so he can solo (he is an ex hippe,
plays lead like an old hippie acoustic player would)...anyway I'm not
critisizing his playing, I don't have much to brag about. BUT by the
second hour I want a damn lead break...finally it comes....after like
two bars of a solo, he starts playing lead WHILE I"M PLAYING LEAD! Man
this is so annoying, not to mention how horrible it sounds. I just
bite my tongue and play more rhythm until it's time to go home. Then
my wife always says,..."But you like playing"...and I say "BUT I HATE
PLAYING WITH HIM!!!".



****
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
http://www.reviewmymusicnow.com
west
2010-03-18 01:55:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by jtees4
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:38:51 -0400, Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"... Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory.. :/
in a Utopian society too. Two guitars will almost always devolve into
volume wars, because one or neither of the players has learned how to back
down when the other guy takes a solo. Bass players never turn down and rock
drummers generally have two speeds... louder and faster.
I saw one band in a hi class lounge once that was doing the all-electronic
thing. Lectronic drums and the bass and guitar had FX floor units that ran
direct into the PA. No amps anywhere. They were playing Pearl Jam and shit
like that, at volumes the lawyers could discuss business over.
Seemed like a strange gig but the guys said the pay was excellent.
Your volume wars comment reminded me of someone...it is a family
friend so I am kind of expected to jam with him when we go visit. I
hate it. I basically back him up so he can solo (he is an ex hippe,
plays lead like an old hippie acoustic player would)...anyway I'm not
critisizing his playing, I don't have much to brag about. BUT by the
second hour I want a damn lead break...finally it comes....after like
two bars of a solo, he starts playing lead WHILE I"M PLAYING LEAD! Man
this is so annoying, not to mention how horrible it sounds. I just
bite my tongue and play more rhythm until it's time to go home. Then
my wife always says,..."But you like playing"...and I say "BUT I HATE
PLAYING WITH HIM!!!".
Leave your axe at home.
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-18 13:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by jtees4
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:38:51 -0400, Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by n***@wt.net
Post by IUnknown
But your assertion that a 15W amp is not enough is laughable at
best... It all depends on the kind of music.
Well, he said "hard rockin music"... Anything is possible if you
can get everyone on the same page.. IE: if two geetar boys, both
use the same size smaller amp, the bass keeps things dialed
down, and the drummer throttles back as to not drown out the
geetar boys..
Sure it can work... But you are approaching Lawrence Welk
territory.. :/
in a Utopian society too. Two guitars will almost always devolve into
volume wars, because one or neither of the players has learned how to back
down when the other guy takes a solo. Bass players never turn down and rock
drummers generally have two speeds... louder and faster.
I saw one band in a hi class lounge once that was doing the all-electronic
thing. Lectronic drums and the bass and guitar had FX floor units that ran
direct into the PA. No amps anywhere. They were playing Pearl Jam and shit
like that, at volumes the lawyers could discuss business over.
Seemed like a strange gig but the guys said the pay was excellent.
Your volume wars comment reminded me of someone...it is a family
friend so I am kind of expected to jam with him when we go visit. I
hate it. I basically back him up so he can solo (he is an ex hippe,
plays lead like an old hippie acoustic player would)...anyway I'm not
critisizing his playing, I don't have much to brag about. BUT by the
second hour I want a damn lead break...finally it comes....after like
two bars of a solo, he starts playing lead WHILE I"M PLAYING LEAD! Man
this is so annoying, not to mention how horrible it sounds. I just
bite my tongue and play more rhythm until it's time to go home. Then
my wife always says,..."But you like playing"...and I say "BUT I HATE
PLAYING WITH HIM!!!".
theres a guy I know in town, just like him, always goes to the jams at
clubs. When i played basketball as a kid, we called guys like him,
"ballhogs". Its amazing to me, that someone would always show up to these
jams, which I would guess are sort of presumed to be about sharing etc etc
etc, and do nothing but spew all over everything. Even the other people's
solos. He's a good player, but its obnoxious.
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 15:35:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by IUnknown
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
  um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
  with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
   through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Being able to 'cut through' has more to do with how your guitar is
EQ'ed ....
thats true, however, pushing the hell outta the mids to cut thru the mix,
is fine for lead solos, but who wants to sound like that the whole gig?
thats gonna just grate on everybodys nerves eventually.
Les Cargill
2010-03-16 02:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
Here are actual live! recordings of an 18W amp which could be heard,
outside ( under a canopy ). You tell me.

http://www.myspace.com/bigbananariverband

<snip>
Post by Squier
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Sure!

--
Les Cargill
jimmy
2010-03-16 12:50:00 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:02:32 -0400, Les Cargill
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
Here are actual live! recordings of an 18W amp which could be heard,
outside ( under a canopy ). You tell me.
http://www.myspace.com/bigbananariverband
Red House. That's some smokin' blues. Sounds to me just like what it
is.
Post by Les Cargill
<snip>
Post by Squier
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Sure!
notbob
2010-03-16 14:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Here are actual live! recordings of an 18W amp which could be heard,
outside ( under a canopy ). You tell me.
http://www.myspace.com/bigbananariverband
Nice playing. That band has a'peel. ;)

nb
Les Cargill
2010-03-17 01:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by notbob
Post by Les Cargill
Here are actual live! recordings of an 18W amp which could be heard,
outside ( under a canopy ). You tell me.
http://www.myspace.com/bigbananariverband
Nice playing. That band has a'peel. ;)
nb
It's defunct. Send Mike an email anyway - he probably
needs the feedback.

--
Les Cargill
Andy <nospam@>
2010-03-16 09:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
Apparently.
Post by Squier
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
??????

Incorrect. Not sure what brought this rant on to be honest.

<snip>
Post by Squier
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
<snip...been into the booze?>
Post by Squier
But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Really?

I played _plenty_ of gigs with a THD Univalve running a solitary 6L6 at
~15 watts, into a 2x12 loaded with (British) Celestion Vintage 30s.

There were plenty of those gigs where the guitar amps remained un-mic'd.

It produced more volume and had more clean headroom than the other
guitarist's 50W Marshall 1/2 stack, which must surely be defined as THE
archetypical "ROCKIN" amp.

That was a fucking *LOUD* rock band.


Go figure.


?
--
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Jim
2010-03-16 21:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy <nospam@>
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
Apparently.
Post by Squier
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
??????
Incorrect. Not sure what brought this rant on to be honest.
<snip>
Post by Squier
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
<snip...been into the booze?>
Post by Squier
But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Really?
I played _plenty_ of gigs with a THD Univalve running a solitary 6L6 at
~15 watts, into a 2x12 loaded with (British) Celestion Vintage 30s.
There were plenty of those gigs where the guitar amps remained un-mic'd.
It produced more volume and had more clean headroom than the other
guitarist's 50W Marshall 1/2 stack, which must surely be defined as THE
archetypical "ROCKIN" amp.
That was a fucking *LOUD* rock band.
Go figure.
I just posted on the Univalve. Some day, I'll try to calculate actual
output with EL34, 6L6GC and 6550A. But for guys like use that have used
them... We know that a 15W rated amp can be LOUD.
Andy <nospam@>
2010-03-16 22:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Post by Andy <nospam@>
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
Apparently.
Post by Squier
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
??????
Incorrect. Not sure what brought this rant on to be honest.
<snip>
Post by Squier
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
<snip...been into the booze?>
Post by Squier
But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Really?
I played _plenty_ of gigs with a THD Univalve running a solitary 6L6 at
~15 watts, into a 2x12 loaded with (British) Celestion Vintage 30s.
There were plenty of those gigs where the guitar amps remained un-mic'd.
It produced more volume and had more clean headroom than the other
guitarist's 50W Marshall 1/2 stack, which must surely be defined as THE
archetypical "ROCKIN" amp.
That was a fucking *LOUD* rock band.
Go figure.
I just posted on the Univalve. Some day, I'll try to calculate actual
output with EL34, 6L6GC and 6550A. But for guys like use that have used
them... We know that a 15W rated amp can be LOUD.
Yep, I saw...

Got a DB meter? I'd be very interested to see the results between the
UniValve+V30 combo compared with one of your 'bigger' amps into your
4x12 with the old Fanes.

I think some would be in for a shock when they saw the results :-D
--
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Jim
2010-03-16 23:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy <nospam@>
Post by Jim
Post by Andy <nospam@>
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
Apparently.
Post by Squier
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
??????
Incorrect. Not sure what brought this rant on to be honest.
<snip>
Post by Squier
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
<snip...been into the booze?>
Post by Squier
But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Really?
I played _plenty_ of gigs with a THD Univalve running a solitary 6L6 at
~15 watts, into a 2x12 loaded with (British) Celestion Vintage 30s.
There were plenty of those gigs where the guitar amps remained un-mic'd.
It produced more volume and had more clean headroom than the other
guitarist's 50W Marshall 1/2 stack, which must surely be defined as THE
archetypical "ROCKIN" amp.
That was a fucking *LOUD* rock band.
Go figure.
I just posted on the Univalve. Some day, I'll try to calculate actual
output with EL34, 6L6GC and 6550A. But for guys like use that have used
them... We know that a 15W rated amp can be LOUD.
Yep, I saw...
Got a DB meter? I'd be very interested to see the results between the
UniValve+V30 combo compared with one of your 'bigger' amps into your
4x12 with the old Fanes.
I think some would be in for a shock when they saw the results :-D
I don't have a standard SPL meter. But for as much as I talk about it,
I'll keep an eye open for a used one, just for grins. I do have an RTA,
but I'm not sure if it has enough range to give a lot of accuracy. I'd
be fun to be able to report the SPL with pink noise of both, then show a
pic of the response curve, with pink noise in.

I do have some video clips showing the different responses of various
cabs/speakers on my RTA, if I can find them.

My older Hiwatt/Fane cab is not as loud as my Vintage 30 2x12. The
Vintage 30's have WAY more content just about everywhere above 500 Hz or
so, compared to the Fanes. It's not subtle at all.
Mark Bedingfield
2010-03-16 10:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.

Mark
Jim
2010-03-16 21:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.
Mark
I modified my Valve Junior. It was loud stock, and louder now (much
beefier output transformer).

I bought a Blackheart Killer Ant that is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 1/4W, because the Valve Junior IS loud.

Don't ever try the Killer Ant with a drummer. Do try it for recording
or practice. Great little setup.
ed s
2010-03-16 21:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.
Mark
I modified my Valve Junior.  It was loud stock, and louder now (much
beefier output transformer).
I bought a Blackheart Killer Ant that is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 1/4W, because the Valve Junior IS loud.
Don't ever try the Killer Ant with a drummer.  Do try it for recording
or practice.  Great little setup.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Since you admit you don't gig or jam - consider a real situation of 2
guitars, keys, vocals, drums ( perhaps mic'd ) and a 400-600w bass amp
( to give out the thud in the chest feel ) !! And you wanting CLEAN 6
string chords on occasion from your rig . You need headroom.. and
having everything on 11 is not an answer nor is everything through the
P.A. ( unless its a very good P.A. & monitor setup , with a guy to go
with it ). much easier to have an amp that can do what you need with a
master volume control to allow you to control whats going on. e
Jim
2010-03-16 22:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Post by Jim
Post by Mark Bedingfield
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.
Mark
I modified my Valve Junior. It was loud stock, and louder now (much
beefier output transformer).
I bought a Blackheart Killer Ant that is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 1/4W, because the Valve Junior IS loud.
Don't ever try the Killer Ant with a drummer. Do try it for recording
or practice. Great little setup.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Since you admit you don't gig or jam
I no longer gig and rarely jam. I'm not without that experience, though.
Post by ed s
- consider a real situation of 2
guitars, keys, vocals, drums ( perhaps mic'd ) and a 400-600w bass amp
( to give out the thud in the chest feel ) !! And you wanting CLEAN 6
string chords on occasion from your rig . You need headroom.. and
having everything on 11 is not an answer nor is everything through the
P.A. ( unless its a very good P.A.& monitor setup , with a guy to go
with it ). much easier to have an amp that can do what you need with a
master volume control to allow you to control whats going on. e
I'm telling you my Univalve would probably surprise you.

But if I wanted tons of clean headroom, I'd grab one (two, or three) of
my Twin Reverbs. Or my Peavey Mace (160W RMS from six 6L6GC).

But the IMMENSE volume potential of those amps don't change the fact
that the 15W Univalve can be DANG loud.
ed s
2010-03-16 22:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Post by Mark Bedingfield
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.
Mark
I modified my Valve Junior.  It was loud stock, and louder now (much
beefier output transformer).
I bought a Blackheart Killer Ant that is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 1/4W, because the Valve Junior IS loud.
Don't ever try the Killer Ant with a drummer.  Do try it for recording
or practice.  Great little setup.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Since you admit you don't gig or jam
I no longer gig and rarely jam.  I'm not without that experience, though.
Post by ed s
- consider  a real situation of 2
guitars, keys, vocals, drums ( perhaps mic'd ) and a 400-600w bass amp
( to give out the thud in the chest feel ) !! And you wanting CLEAN 6
string chords on occasion from your rig .   You need headroom.. and
having everything on 11 is not an answer nor is everything through the
P.A. ( unless its a very good P.A.&   monitor setup , with a guy to go
with it ). much easier to have an amp that can do what you need with a
master volume control to allow you to control whats going on. e
I'm telling you my Univalve would probably surprise you.
But if I wanted tons of clean headroom, I'd grab one (two, or three) of
my Twin Reverbs.  Or my Peavey Mace (160W RMS from six 6L6GC).
But the IMMENSE volume potential of those amps don't change the fact
that the 15W Univalve can be DANG loud.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't care that much about LOUD I care about tone and clarity, and
feel and sustain, and the ability to hear myself in a band . Your
right, I be damn surpised if I liked a 15w Univalve more than a JMP
MKII 50 watter at 1/2 and 1/2 with a Strat in the high input or a
LesPaul at about the same settings in the low input. e
Jim
2010-03-16 23:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Post by Jim
Post by ed s
Post by Jim
Post by Mark Bedingfield
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.
Mark
I modified my Valve Junior. It was loud stock, and louder now (much
beefier output transformer).
I bought a Blackheart Killer Ant that is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 1/4W, because the Valve Junior IS loud.
Don't ever try the Killer Ant with a drummer. Do try it for recording
or practice. Great little setup.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Since you admit you don't gig or jam
I no longer gig and rarely jam. I'm not without that experience, though.
Post by ed s
- consider a real situation of 2
guitars, keys, vocals, drums ( perhaps mic'd ) and a 400-600w bass amp
( to give out the thud in the chest feel ) !! And you wanting CLEAN 6
string chords on occasion from your rig . You need headroom.. and
having everything on 11 is not an answer nor is everything through the
P.A. ( unless its a very good P.A.& monitor setup , with a guy to go
with it ). much easier to have an amp that can do what you need with a
master volume control to allow you to control whats going on. e
I'm telling you my Univalve would probably surprise you.
But if I wanted tons of clean headroom, I'd grab one (two, or three) of
my Twin Reverbs. Or my Peavey Mace (160W RMS from six 6L6GC).
But the IMMENSE volume potential of those amps don't change the fact
that the 15W Univalve can be DANG loud.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't care that much about LOUD I care about tone and clarity, and
feel and sustain, and the ability to hear myself in a band . Your
right, I be damn surpised if I liked a 15w Univalve more than a JMP
MKII 50 watter at 1/2 and 1/2 with a Strat in the high input or a
LesPaul at about the same settings in the low input. e
Well, I also own a JMP 2204 that I bought new. I don't prize it for
clarity, I like the distortion tone.
Les Cargill
2010-03-17 01:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud
enough to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see
how you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on
venue, drummer and style.
Mark
I once used a 65W SS Fender across from a guy with a 100W JCM900, and
you could *smell* his sound, but you couldn't really hear him.
*Phzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*.

You could hear me fine. It's a funny old world.

--
Les Cargill
Lawrence Logic
2010-03-17 08:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
I once used a 65W SS Fender across from a guy with a 100W JCM900, and
you could *smell* his sound, but you couldn't really hear him.
I jammed with a guitarist who played through a 100W SS Yamaha and a Marshall
quad box. His amp was turned right up, but was swamped by my Peavey Classic
30 turned up to 3œ (out of 12) through its lone 12" speaker. I guess that's
the opposite of your post.
--
Lawrence
"... and if one more person talked to me about that Susan Boyle performance
of Les Miserables, I was going to puke my balls out through my mouth." - Ike
Broflovski - 22 April 2009
Greendistantstar
2010-03-17 10:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Logic
Post by Les Cargill
I once used a 65W SS Fender across from a guy with a 100W JCM900, and
you could *smell* his sound, but you couldn't really hear him.
I jammed with a guitarist who played through a 100W SS Yamaha and a Marshall
quad box. His amp was turned right up, but was swamped by my Peavey Classic
30 turned up to 3½ (out of 12) through its lone 12" speaker. I guess that's
the opposite of your post.
Yeah....'cept those of us who loathe and revile Yamaha amps of any model or description will
simply shrug and perhaps giggle a little.

OTOH I have a little Peavey that pushes the air around nicely too, so I take your point.

GDS

"Let's roll!"
Lawrence Logic
2010-03-17 11:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greendistantstar
Post by Lawrence Logic
Post by Les Cargill
I once used a 65W SS Fender across from a guy with a 100W JCM900, and
you could *smell* his sound, but you couldn't really hear him.
I jammed with a guitarist who played through a 100W SS Yamaha and a
Marshall quad box. His amp was turned right up, but was swamped by my
Peavey Classic 30 turned up to 3œ (out of 12) through its lone 12"
speaker. I guess that's the opposite of your post.
Yeah....'cept those of us who loathe and revile Yamaha amps of any model
or description will
simply shrug and perhaps giggle a little.
It's funny that you should suggest that, because that's exactly what I did.
Post by Greendistantstar
OTOH I have a little Peavey that pushes the air around nicely too, so I take your point.
I have a big Peavey that pushes too much air. It's frustrating having to
juggle between Œ and œ to maintain good relations with one's neighbours.
I'd love to have that Classic 30 again!

I've actually been considering a Delta Blues 30 with the 15" speaker(s).
Have you tried the Delta Blues, and (if so) how would you compare it with
the Classic 30?

From what I can tell, I'm a Fender guitar/Peavey amp kind of guy. Perhaps
the Peaveys have a better pre-amp distortion than most other amps. I never
liked the Marshall TSL-60, although it probably would have sounded pretty
good if I'd ever cranked it up!
--
Lawrence
"If I was a towel, why would I be wearing this hat and this fake
moustache" - Steven McTowelie - 19 April 2006

P.S. South Park starts again in a few hours. They give Tiger Woods a bit
of a going over as far as I've heard...
jtees4
2010-03-17 23:08:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:41:06 GMT, "Lawrence Logic"
Post by Lawrence Logic
Post by Greendistantstar
Post by Lawrence Logic
Post by Les Cargill
I once used a 65W SS Fender across from a guy with a 100W JCM900, and
you could *smell* his sound, but you couldn't really hear him.
I jammed with a guitarist who played through a 100W SS Yamaha and a
Marshall quad box. His amp was turned right up, but was swamped by my
Peavey Classic 30 turned up to 3½ (out of 12) through its lone 12"
speaker. I guess that's the opposite of your post.
Yeah....'cept those of us who loathe and revile Yamaha amps of any model
or description will
simply shrug and perhaps giggle a little.
It's funny that you should suggest that, because that's exactly what I did.
Post by Greendistantstar
OTOH I have a little Peavey that pushes the air around nicely too, so I take your point.
I have a big Peavey that pushes too much air. It's frustrating having to
juggle between ¼ and ½ to maintain good relations with one's neighbours.
I'd love to have that Classic 30 again!
I've actually been considering a Delta Blues 30 with the 15" speaker(s).
Have you tried the Delta Blues, and (if so) how would you compare it with
the Classic 30?
From what I can tell, I'm a Fender guitar/Peavey amp kind of guy. Perhaps
the Peaveys have a better pre-amp distortion than most other amps. I never
liked the Marshall TSL-60, although it probably would have sounded pretty
good if I'd ever cranked it up!
You guys are making me miss my Peavey Prowler. I'm still mad at myself
for letting it go, and it's been awhile.



****
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
http://www.reviewmymusicnow.com
Les Cargill
2010-03-17 22:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Logic
Post by Les Cargill
I once used a 65W SS Fender across from a guy with a 100W JCM900, and
you could *smell* his sound, but you couldn't really hear him.
I jammed with a guitarist who played through a 100W SS Yamaha and a Marshall
quad box.
One of those old '70s ones? That should have been audible in space.
Post by Lawrence Logic
His amp was turned right up, but was swamped by my Peavey Classic
30 turned up to 3½ (out of 12) through its lone 12" speaker. I guess that's
the opposite of your post.
Point being, you never can tell what will work. C30s cut real good.

--
Les Cargill
Patrick Keenan
2010-03-18 01:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I used my 5w Epi VJH/1x12 Greenback for rehearsal once. It was loud enough
to get over the drummer. Just. It all went to shit when the other
guitarist fired up his Marshall JCM 100w thingy, tho. TBH I could see how
you COULD get away with the average 15 watt valve amp, depending on venue,
drummer and style.
As you say, venue has a lot to do with this. I used to play a lot of house
parties, and a Champ was enough.

I have to say, don't blame the amp if you can't rock the room.
jtees4
2010-03-16 11:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I agree with you in most normal rock situations that I've played in
over the years. 15Watts just ain't gonna cut it....and if there is
even the hint of needing a clean tone...forget it entirly.



****
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
http://www.reviewmymusicnow.com
"Monster Zero" >
2010-03-16 11:42:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I think most blues players can get away with it. With the band I am playing
in right now a 15w tube amp wouldn't stand a chance against our lead players
amp set up. Though I must admit we play way too loud for rehearsal.

I've done an entire set with just a MFX modeler being fed through the mains
and my monitor so amps aren't even a requirement. I will admit though that
it didn't sound so hot through my monitor but it got me through the gig.
Thats the last time I gigged without a backup amp though.

Myself I prefer to have at least a 50w tube amp(right now my dirt all comes
from pedals) but my giging amp is a 100w Carvin 2x12 sitting on top of a
4x12 loaded with 1971 Eminence Alnico V's. In my band I have to have that
low end thump that you just can't get out of a small amp though. I recently
saw a 80's Tribute band live and the lone guitarist was using a mic'd Roland
Cube 60 and they sounded damn good. So it's all in application.

The best tone I've ever had was my old Twin loaded with Celestion GH12-75's
sitting on top of an old beat up Crate 15" bass cab. It was goosebump city
when that thing was blasting. Of course I was using pedals for dirt on that
too.

So yeah if you are playing outdoors with no mics ya gotta have a big tube
amp but a small indoor venue you could get away with most stuff as hard as
Nugent with a 15w amp but for me personally I love the sound of a 100w tube
amp blasting away and melting faces.
ed s
2010-03-16 12:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by "Monster Zero" >
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
 um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
 with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
  through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I think most blues players can get away with it. With the band I am playing
in right now a 15w tube amp wouldn't stand a chance against our lead players
amp set up. Though I must admit we play way too loud for rehearsal.
I've done an entire set with just a MFX modeler being fed through the mains
and my monitor so amps aren't even a requirement. I will admit though that
it didn't sound so hot through my monitor but it got me through the gig.
Thats the last time I gigged without a backup amp though.
Myself I prefer to have at least a 50w tube amp(right now my dirt all comes
from pedals) but my giging amp is a 100w Carvin 2x12 sitting on top of a
4x12 loaded with 1971 Eminence Alnico V's. In my band I have to have that
low end thump that you just can't get out of a small amp though. I recently
saw a 80's Tribute band live and the lone guitarist was using a mic'd Roland
Cube 60 and they sounded damn good. So it's all in application.
The best tone I've ever had was my old Twin loaded with Celestion GH12-75's
sitting on top of an old beat up Crate 15" bass cab. It was goosebump city
when that thing was blasting. Of course I was using pedals for dirt on that
too.
So yeah if you are playing outdoors with no mics ya gotta have a big tube
amp but a small indoor venue you could get away with most stuff as hard as
Nugent  with a 15w amp but for me personally I love the sound of a 100w tube
amp blasting away and melting faces.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Don't be a puss ,,
Loading Image...
hahhaa= ed
Dr. Zontar
2010-03-16 14:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by "Monster Zero" >
So yeah if you are playing outdoors with no mics ya gotta have a big tube
amp but a small indoor venue you could get away with most stuff as hard as
Nugent  with a 15w amp but for me personally I love the sound of a 100w tube
amp blasting away and melting faces.
I agree. I tried a 6w Champ with my old band, and couldn't even hear
myself. At the time, I was running a 60w tube amp through a 4x12. Now
I'm running a 100w s.s. head through two 4x12 cabs.

I think the people who like small amps aren't conniseurs of gut-
punching low end (which is what my current band is all about).

- Rich
Les Cargill
2010-03-17 01:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Zontar
Post by "Monster Zero" >
So yeah if you are playing outdoors with no mics ya gotta have a big tube
amp but a small indoor venue you could get away with most stuff as hard as
Nugent with a 15w amp but for me personally I love the sound of a 100w tube
amp blasting away and melting faces.
I agree. I tried a 6w Champ with my old band, and couldn't even hear
myself. At the time, I was running a 60w tube amp through a 4x12. Now
I'm running a 100w s.s. head through two 4x12 cabs.
I think the people who like small amps aren't conniseurs of gut-
punching low end (which is what my current band is all about).
- Rich
This is oh so very extremely true. Of course, why bother with a bass
player, then? My bass rig is 1kW, and that is 100% about getting
useable sound below 100Hz.

But yes - bl00z/c0untry guys and metal guys will do this very
differently.

--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
2010-03-17 01:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Monster Zero <***@bragmail.com wrote:
<snip>
Post by "Monster Zero" >
The best tone I've ever had was my old Twin loaded with Celestion GH12-75's
sitting on top of an old beat up Crate 15" bass cab. It was goosebump city
when that thing was blasting. Of course I was using pedals for dirt on that
too.
Good grief. GH1275 run well over 100 dB @ 1 W meter. You mighta been
in the 130 dB range.
Post by "Monster Zero" >
So yeah if you are playing outdoors with no mics ya gotta have a big tube
amp but a small indoor venue you could get away with most stuff as hard as
Nugent with a 15w amp but for me personally I love the sound of a 100w tube
amp blasting away and melting faces.
--
Les Cargill
TheChris
2010-03-16 15:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where if
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..

And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.

It's all in the monitor system... As long as you got a good sound, and
a good microphone - monitors will give you what you want...

PS - I've done gigs with my POD - no speakers - and have gotten
compliments... :)
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 15:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where if
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues junior,
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows were with
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock cover band
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
TheChris
2010-03-16 17:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where if
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues junior,
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows were with
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock cover band
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
I've never used the Blues Jr. with any of my Hard Rock bands, but, I
don't think there'd be an issue... It's amazing how playing low, and
having the sound engulf you from all sides is.. Hell - I did gigs with
my DanElectro Nifty Fifty!! That was a stretch though :)
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 18:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or
4x12
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where
if
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows were
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock cover
band
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
I've never used the Blues Jr. with any of my Hard Rock bands, but, I
don't think there'd be an issue... It's amazing how playing low, and
having the sound engulf you from all sides is.. Hell - I did gigs with
my DanElectro Nifty Fifty!! That was a stretch though :)
dont you guys have a soundman for every gig? and decent monitor mixes?
TheChris
2010-03-16 19:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or
4x12
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where
if
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows were
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock cover
band
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
I've never used the Blues Jr. with any of my Hard Rock bands, but, I
don't think there'd be an issue... It's amazing how playing low, and
having the sound engulf you from all sides is.. Hell - I did gigs with
my DanElectro Nifty Fifty!! That was a stretch though :)
dont you guys have a soundman for every gig? and decent monitor mixes?
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about - decent mixes. But, that
NiftyFifty with it's 8" speaker did NOT sound massive when pumped
through the mains :)
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 19:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or
4x12
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack
where
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
if
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows
were
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the
poor
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock
cover
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
band
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
I've never used the Blues Jr. with any of my Hard Rock bands, but, I
don't think there'd be an issue... It's amazing how playing low, and
having the sound engulf you from all sides is.. Hell - I did gigs
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
my DanElectro Nifty Fifty!! That was a stretch though :)
dont you guys have a soundman for every gig? and decent monitor mixes?
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about - decent mixes. But, that
NiftyFifty with it's 8" speaker did NOT sound massive when pumped
through the mains :)
heh. i'm not sure how many times the words 8inches and massive have been
used together.

except maybe in an amber lynn movie.
TheChris
2010-03-16 20:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or
4x12
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack
where
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
if
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows
were
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the
poor
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock
cover
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
band
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
I've never used the Blues Jr. with any of my Hard Rock bands, but, I
don't think there'd be an issue... It's amazing how playing low, and
having the sound engulf you from all sides is.. Hell - I did gigs
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
my DanElectro Nifty Fifty!! That was a stretch though :)
dont you guys have a soundman for every gig? and decent monitor mixes?
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about - decent mixes. But, that
NiftyFifty with it's 8" speaker did NOT sound massive when pumped
through the mains :)
heh. i'm not sure how many times the words 8inches and massive have been
used together.
except maybe in an amber lynn movie.
I seem to say it ALL the time - when talking about my NiftyFifty :)
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-17 15:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you
have
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing
live
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12
or
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
4x12
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm
saying.
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack
where
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
if
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows
were
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the
poor
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock
cover
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
band
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.
I've never used the Blues Jr. with any of my Hard Rock bands, but,
I
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
don't think there'd be an issue... It's amazing how playing low,
and
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
having the sound engulf you from all sides is.. Hell - I did gigs
with
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
my DanElectro Nifty Fifty!! That was a stretch though :)
dont you guys have a soundman for every gig? and decent monitor
mixes?
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Yeah - that's what I'm talking about - decent mixes. But, that
NiftyFifty with it's 8" speaker did NOT sound massive when pumped
through the mains :)
heh. i'm not sure how many times the words 8inches and massive have
been
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
used together.
except maybe in an amber lynn movie.
I seem to say it ALL the time - when talking about my NiftyFifty :)
oh... is that what you call it these days?
ed s
2010-03-16 21:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
  um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
  with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
   through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where if
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues junior,
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows were with
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock cover band
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Do you use a MAKE IT CLEAN pedal? Where did you get it? Cause a Blues
Jr cranked sound like trash for and kind of recognizable chords
( unless its grunge and then maybe it doesn't matter) - ok except for
lead lines and mostly single notes it might be ok (but still whimpish
without assistance IMO)..I had one, great for home alone - sucked
with and kind of band - took it back . e..
TheChris
2010-03-16 21:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
  um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
  with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
   through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack
where i
Post by ed s
f
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior
Post by ed s
,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows
were wi
Post by ed s
th
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock
cover ba
Post by ed s
nd
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Do you use a MAKE IT CLEAN pedal? Where did you get it? Cause a Blues
Jr cranked sound like trash for and kind of recognizable chords
( unless its grunge and then maybe it doesn't matter) - ok except for
lead lines and mostly single notes it might be ok (but still whimpish
without assistance IMO)..I had one, great for home alone - sucked
with and kind of band - took it back . e..
I play mine with the master pegged, and the pre as my volume knob... I
play it pretty clean - using pedals for distortion. Fender distortion
was never a good thing...
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
ed s
2010-03-16 21:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.  You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor.  Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself).   ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc  power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
  um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
  with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
   through a 15 watt amp.  sure ok.  then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones.  I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or
4x12
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN.  Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH.  ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh.  I am Squier's eViL twin!  Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there.  But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack
where i
f
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior
,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows
were wi
th
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock
cover ba
nd
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Do you use a MAKE IT CLEAN pedal? Where did you get it?  Cause a Blues
Jr cranked sound like trash for and kind of recognizable chords
( unless its grunge and then maybe it doesn't matter) - ok except for
lead lines and mostly single notes it might be ok (but still whimpish
without assistance   IMO)..I had one, great for home alone - sucked
with and kind of band - took it back . e..
I play mine with the master pegged, and the pre as my volume knob... I
play it pretty clean - using pedals for distortion. Fender distortion
was never a good thing...
--
Christopher Bellhttp://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux
 ______________________________
|                              |
|           Any Amp!           |
|   ________________________   |
|  |!!o Q  Q  Q¸ Q  Q  Q :: |  |
|==============================|            
         Linux user #497844- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And a good PA with Good monitors - different story.. e
Jim
2010-03-16 22:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Post by ed s
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or
4x12
Post by ed s
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack
where i
Post by ed s
f
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by TheChris
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
And, I've done hundreds of gigs with my Blues Jr. where it's just
KILLED.
OK I forgot about that. I've done many shows with an unmic'd blues
junior
Post by ed s
,
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
turned up, using pedals, and it worked fine. Granted, those shows
were wi
Post by ed s
th
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
a sort of alt-pop band with a chick drummer who doesnt pound the poor
things into submission. I have also tried it with my harder rock
cover ba
Post by ed s
nd
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
with guy drummer, doesnt work as well.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Do you use a MAKE IT CLEAN pedal? Where did you get it? Cause a Blues
Jr cranked sound like trash for and kind of recognizable chords
( unless its grunge and then maybe it doesn't matter) - ok except for
lead lines and mostly single notes it might be ok (but still whimpish
without assistance IMO)..I had one, great for home alone - sucked
with and kind of band - took it back . e..
I play mine with the master pegged, and the pre as my volume knob...
And you ought to get a good 15W clean. When it starts to clip, you're
probably pushing over 15W.
Post by TheChris
I
play it pretty clean - using pedals for distortion. Fender distortion
was never a good thing...
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
TheChris
2010-03-17 12:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...

The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
Mark Bedingfield
2010-03-17 12:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...
The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
Fender Bassman? Quite a few of those used for overdriven tone in the 60's.

Mark
Andy <nospam@>
2010-03-17 13:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by TheChris
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...
The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
Nugent at one stage used Super Twins live - loads of them.

~180 watts out of six 6L6GCs into a two-twelve combo. I'm doubtful the
overdrive was coming purely from the amp circuitry (those things sound
like a busted arse distorted).

Pure masochism - in the form of a guitar amp.
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Fender Bassman? Quite a few of those used for overdriven tone in the 60's.
Most definitely.
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Mark
<cough>*SUPER REVERB*</cough>
<cough>*SUPER REVERB*</cough>
<cough>*SUPER REVERB*</cough>
<cough>*SUPER REVERB*</cough>
<cough>*SUPER REVERB*</cough>

Excuse me...
--
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-17 15:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by TheChris
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...
The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
Fender Bassman? Quite a few of those used for overdriven tone in the 60's.
true, those are terrific.,... sort of the exception to the rule however

all rules made to be broken, as it were
Mark Bedingfield
2010-03-18 09:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by TheChris
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...
The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
Fender Bassman? Quite a few of those used for overdriven tone in the 60's.
true, those are terrific.,... sort of the exception to the rule however
all rules made to be broken, as it were
I always figure you can make clean dirty, but not dirty clean. I've
never been a big fan of the Marshall tone, strikes me as a one trick
pony. Twins, Verbs, Bassman, champ... all great tone imo. Most Marshall
lovers stend to like the Bassman for some reason ;-) I tried a EJ Strat
thru a 59 RI Bassman once and it was killer.

Mark
TheChris
2010-03-18 12:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by TheChris
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...
The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
Fender Bassman? Quite a few of those used for overdriven tone in the 60's.
true, those are terrific.,... sort of the exception to the rule however
all rules made to be broken, as it were
I always figure you can make clean dirty, but not dirty clean. I've
never been a big fan of the Marshall tone, strikes me as a one trick
pony. Twins, Verbs, Bassman, champ... all great tone imo. Most
Marshall
Post by Mark Bedingfield
lovers stend to like the Bassman for some reason ;-) I tried a EJ Strat
thru a 59 RI Bassman once and it was killer.
Mark
Well, you're right about the one trick pony thing - but, it's quite the
trick. For guys (like me) playing hard rock, that's the 99% sound.

True, my cleans suffer :)
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-18 14:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Mark Bedingfield
Post by TheChris
Post by Jim
Fender PREAMP distortion was never a good thing. There are plenty of
GREAT Fender distorted tones, relying on power tube distortion.
Maybe there are great overdriven tones, ala SRV, but I've never heard a
guitar player (with a sound I like) get that sound from distorted
Fenders...
The exception is Ted Nugent - but, I'm not even sure what he used - Dual
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
Fender Bassman? Quite a few of those used for overdriven tone in the 60's.
true, those are terrific.,... sort of the exception to the rule however
all rules made to be broken, as it were
I always figure you can make clean dirty, but not dirty clean. I've
never been a big fan of the Marshall tone, strikes me as a one trick
pony. Twins, Verbs, Bassman, champ... all great tone imo. Most Marshall
lovers stend to like the Bassman for some reason ;-) I tried a EJ Strat
thru a 59 RI Bassman once and it was killer.
at one point, the early days, I believe the earliest marshalls were somehow
designed with some kind of Fender lectronix in mind. Yes, you can make
clean dirty, however, its often not a very good dirty, depending upon what
you actually want from dirt. I like the smooth raunch and roar from the
marshall, my old 800 gets that, and neither my Blues Junior nor my Classic
30 can get there, with any kind of pedal, and I've tried dozens and dozens.
The Classic 30 gets sort of close. And it gets a great clean, so, thats my
amp of choice for anything except hard rock. The 800s clean channel is
surprisingly good. Its not Fender Twin clean, but its good.
notbob
2010-03-17 15:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
I was attracted to the first PC 50s, but playing one put me off.
While the clean tones were lucious, after a certain level of
overdrive, the feedback was overwhelming and uncontrollable. Have
they tamed that on the newer models?

nb
TheChris
2010-03-17 15:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by notbob
Post by TheChris
Showmans? For the last dozen years, he's been using Peavey Classic 50's.
I was attracted to the first PC 50s, but playing one put me off.
While the clean tones were lucious, after a certain level of
overdrive, the feedback was overwhelming and uncontrollable. Have
they tamed that on the newer models?
nb
Well, what kind of feedback are you talking about?? Nugent/Judas Priest
feedback, or squeal?

Honestly, I never judged an amp (recently) on it's overdrive - I always
used pedals, so, I liked the PC 50....

What turned me off was reading about how much ribbon cable are in those
'Classics' :)
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
notbob
2010-03-17 16:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Well, what kind of feedback are you talking about?? Nugent/Judas Priest
feedback, or squeal?
After a certain point --a very low point in my opinion-- there was no
difference. Feedback from unmuted strings was uncontrollable, unlike
my 100W MB mk II, which was always controllable, even near max.

nb
TheChris
2010-03-17 20:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by notbob
Post by TheChris
Well, what kind of feedback are you talking about?? Nugent/Judas Priest
feedback, or squeal?
After a certain point --a very low point in my opinion-- there was no
difference. Feedback from unmuted strings was uncontrollable, unlike
my 100W MB mk II, which was always controllable, even near max.
nb
Actually, you're selling me to consider buying another PC50 :)

My local music store just scored a 5150 head, and a matching cab...but,
I think that's just a bit too much..
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux

______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Qž Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
notbob
2010-03-17 21:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Actually, you're selling me to consider buying another PC50 :)
Heh heh.....

I really liked other things about that amp, but when cranked up it
became a banshee. Mighta been the guitar, also a Peavy.

nb
Jim
2010-03-16 21:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where if
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
Not surprising. 4x12's are directional. Not "loud" off axis, but back
up about 50 feet. They'll kill where a 2x12 combo will be lost.
Stephen Cowell
2010-03-16 23:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheChris
Nonsense... I've done gigs with my 100 Watt Marshall Half stack where if
I walked to a certain area on the stage... I couldn't hear it..
Quad-element planar phased array... IOW beam
antenna.

Unless you have to deal with shitty PA, small amps
are the cat's meow. Just make sure it's close to you
and pointed at the back of the guitar. 15w is plenty.
__
Steve
.
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 15:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.
IF you have a monitor system where you can have your own monitor mix, sure
you can. Just mic the amp and turn it up louder in your own monitor.

Without that, unless its a LOUD 15 watts, and your drummer is not a
neanderthal, no, its not a good idea.
Les Cargill
2010-03-17 01:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.
IF you have a monitor system where you can have your own monitor mix, sure
you can. Just mic the amp and turn it up louder in your own monitor.
Without that, unless its a LOUD 15 watts, and your drummer is not a
neanderthal, no, its not a good idea.
The way I figure it, if I can't play with a band using a 15 W amp -
and that includes *some* clean - then I will stay home and keep my
hearing.

--
Les Cargill
dvaoa
2010-03-17 02:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
c'mon people.  I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp.
IF you have a monitor system where you can have your own monitor mix, sure
you can. Just mic the amp and turn it up louder in your own monitor.
Without that, unless its a LOUD 15 watts, and your drummer is not a
neanderthal, no, its not a good idea.
The way I figure it, if I can't play with a band using a 15 W amp -
and that includes *some* clean - then I will stay home and keep my
hearing.
--
Les Cargill
I don't get it...15 watts o' tube through a 12 is crazy loud. My
Blues Custom (2x12) in 15W Class A mode is a monster only 1/2 way up.
My 17 watt Atomic Reactor 112...I've never had to crank past 12:00
o'clock.

Hell, I've even done a gig with a ss Tech21 TM30 (1x10). At non-
Spinal Tap volumes.

-d
Meat Plow
2010-03-16 15:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I saw a band play Rolling Rock concert in Latrobe PA and the guitarist
played through a Twin. The stage was like 200 fee long and there must
have been 100,000 people there.

Moral of the story is you are going to be miked unless you're inside a
bar or club and even then you're probably going to be miked. And
you're going to be in the stage sound so your band members can hear
you. I'd have zero problems doing a gig with a BF Fender Deluxe.
jtees4
2010-03-16 16:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
I assumed this meant WITHOUT micing the amp....of course if the amp is
miced it kind of becomes irrelevant.



****
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
http://www.reviewmymusicnow.com
c***@hotmail.com
2010-03-16 17:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Ok..........Here it goes. Played last year with 38
special...............Not a guitar amp onstage2 pods for each guy with
an a/b switch. worked fantastically. In ear monitors of couse and
guitars sounded freakin HUGE. I have done several shows with the
headphone out of a cube 60 and 30 direct to pa with a seperate wedge
mix for each guy. worked superb. If I play a hard rock show I pretty
much use my Pocket Pod exclusively....................you are correct
if there is not ample P.A. but
otherwise...................................well you know, Dave
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 18:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Ok..........Here it goes. Played last year with 38
special...............Not a guitar amp onstage2 pods for each guy with
an a/b switch. worked fantastically. In ear monitors of couse and
guitars sounded freakin HUGE. I have done several shows with the
headphone out of a cube 60 and 30 direct to pa with a seperate wedge
mix for each guy. worked superb. If I play a hard rock show I pretty
much use my Pocket Pod exclusively....................you are correct
if there is not ample P.A. but
otherwise...................................well you know, Dave
you played guitar with 38 Special or your band opened?
c***@hotmail.com
2010-03-16 19:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
you played guitar with 38 Special or your band opened?
we opened should have clarified..............Dave
ed s
2010-03-16 19:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Ok..........Here it goes. Played last year with 38
special...............Not a guitar amp onstage2 pods for each guy with
an a/b switch. worked fantastically. In ear monitors of couse and
guitars sounded freakin HUGE. I have done several shows with the
headphone out of a cube 60 and 30 direct to pa with a seperate wedge
mix for each guy. worked superb. If I play a hard rock show I pretty
much use my Pocket Pod exclusively....................you are correct
if there is not ample P.A. but
otherwise...................................well you know, Dave
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-16 19:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Ok..........Here it goes. Played last year with 38
special...............Not a guitar amp onstage2 pods for each guy with
an a/b switch. worked fantastically. In ear monitors of couse and
guitars sounded freakin HUGE. I have done several shows with the
headphone out of a cube 60 and 30 direct to pa with a seperate wedge
mix for each guy. worked superb. If I play a hard rock show I pretty
much use my Pocket Pod exclusively....................you are correct
if there is not ample P.A. but
otherwise...................................well you know, Dave
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
i've heard chickenpicker, he's an excellent guitarist and far as I'm
concerned, anybody like that, has an opinion well worth considering, when
it comes to music/gigs/ etc.

maybe the guitar doesnt get feedback from the amp, but, its 38 special,
I've met those guys, they're real professionals, and I bet it sounds
fucking awesome anyway.
dvaoa
2010-03-17 00:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya? You're not that old to be
so calcified. It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...

-d
jimmy
2010-03-17 12:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by dvaoa
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya? You're not that old to be
so calcified. It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...
-d
Post du jour!! Just razzin' ya ed. However you like to do it, Rock
on! Gotta clean up my screen now...
ed s
2010-03-17 16:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya?  You're not that old to be
so calcified.  It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...
-d
Post du jour!!  Just razzin' ya ed.  However you like to do it, Rock
on!  Gotta clean up my screen now...
haha - whatever - (~70) Hendrix, Santana, Who, Yes, ELP - how do you
get better than that? If it happens in 2010 let me know.( cause it
ain't happend in a while IMHO ).
Loading Image...
Rock On !! ed
dvaoa
2010-03-18 01:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya?  You're not that old to be
so calcified.  It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...
-d
Post du jour!!  Just razzin' ya ed.  However you like to do it, Rock
on!  Gotta clean up my screen now...
haha - whatever - (~70) Hendrix, Santana, Who, Yes, ELP  - how do you
get better than that?  If it happens in 2010 let me know.( cause it
ain't happend in a while  IMHO ).http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/arrmebucko1.3091...
Rock On !!   ed
Seriously.

You're saying the only music worth listening to came out in the 70's?
Dude...you're just not looking. Different doesn't mean bad, and when
you shut yourself off to new things, well...There's a difference
between knowing what you like and proclaiming oneself an authority/
judge/jury on what's acceptable. You set yourself up that way,
and...look out ;-)

Big amps going boom...don't mean those sounds are worth listening
to . Trust me on that.

-d (being up 52 hours straight vacuuming a flooding basement is
guaranteed to make you a little twitchy. Take what I say with a grain
of salt. I really do enjoy your enthusiasm for playing & for the joy
it brings you.)
jimmy
2010-03-18 13:28:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by dvaoa
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya?  You're not that old to be
so calcified.  It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...
-d
Post du jour!!  Just razzin' ya ed.  However you like to do it, Rock
on!  Gotta clean up my screen now...
haha - whatever - (~70) Hendrix, Santana, Who, Yes, ELP  - how do you
get better than that?  If it happens in 2010 let me know.( cause it
ain't happend in a while  IMHO ).http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/arrmebucko1.3091...
Rock On !!   ed
Seriously.
You're saying the only music worth listening to came out in the 70's?
Dude...you're just not looking. Different doesn't mean bad, and when
you shut yourself off to new things, well...There's a difference
between knowing what you like and proclaiming oneself an authority/
judge/jury on what's acceptable. You set yourself up that way,
and...look out ;-)
Yep, you gotta open your mind. I know ed likes slide.


Post by dvaoa
Big amps going boom...don't mean those sounds are worth listening
to . Trust me on that.
-d (being up 52 hours straight vacuuming a flooding basement is
guaranteed to make you a little twitchy. Take what I say with a grain
of salt. I really do enjoy your enthusiasm for playing & for the joy
it brings you.)
Still at that are you? I've been there and I know that blows man. I
think you said you're on a hill. Can't set up a syphon with a long
hose?
dvaoa
2010-03-18 14:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by dvaoa
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya?  You're not that old to be
so calcified.  It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...
-d
Post du jour!!  Just razzin' ya ed.  However you like to do it, Rock
on!  Gotta clean up my screen now...
haha - whatever - (~70) Hendrix, Santana, Who, Yes, ELP  - how do you
get better than that?  If it happens in 2010 let me know.( cause it
ain't happend in a while  IMHO ).http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/arrmebucko1.3091...
Rock On !!   ed
Seriously.
You're saying the only music worth listening to came out in the 70's?
Dude...you're just not looking.  Different doesn't mean bad, and when
you shut yourself off to new things, well...There's a difference
between knowing what you like and proclaiming oneself an authority/
judge/jury on what's acceptable.  You set yourself up that way,
and...look out ;-)
Yep, you gotta open your mind.  I know ed likes slide.
http://youtu.be/U631FGnXDXY
Post by dvaoa
Big amps going boom...don't mean those sounds are worth listening
to .  Trust me on that.
-d (being up 52 hours straight vacuuming a flooding basement is
guaranteed to make you a little twitchy.  Take what I say with a grain
of salt.  I really do enjoy your enthusiasm for playing & for the joy
it brings you.)
Still at that are you?  I've been there and I know that blows man.  I
think you said you're on a hill.  Can't set up a syphon with a long
hose?
We're on a hill, one of the highest elevations in town. But my
neighborhood is on an old apple orchard...the soil is almost all clay,
so it doesn't drain.

This really sucked...worst I've seen in the 17 years we've been in
this house.

The problem is, it's coming in multiple spots, and out of all of them,
there's only one "low spot" and even that's not that low to put a pump
in it. Now that it's done, I do have a plan for the next time this
happens, involving timers, a hose splitter & a shop vac with a drain
plug. Rubber bands & paper clips, baby!

-d
ed s
2010-03-18 13:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dvaoa
Post by ed s
Ohh yes indeed - love that DiGiTal Tone - zzzzzzzzzzzzz , and how in
the hell does the guitar get any feedback from the Amp? Oh the guitar
wears earbuds too!! hahaha - e
Goddamn, Ed...unclench yer butt, will ya?  You're not that old to be
so calcified.  It's 2010...I love the 70's too, but man...
-d
Post du jour!!  Just razzin' ya ed.  However you like to do it, Rock
on!  Gotta clean up my screen now...
haha - whatever - (~70) Hendrix, Santana, Who, Yes, ELP  - how do you
get better than that?  If it happens in 2010 let me know.( cause it
ain't happend in a while  IMHO ).http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/arrmebucko1.3091...
Rock On !!   ed
Seriously.
You're saying the only music worth listening to came out in the 70's?
Dude...you're just not looking.  Different doesn't mean bad, and when
you shut yourself off to new things, well...There's a difference
between knowing what you like and proclaiming oneself an authority/
judge/jury on what's acceptable.  You set yourself up that way,
and...look out ;-)
Big amps going boom...don't mean those sounds are worth listening
to .  Trust me on that.
-d (being up 52 hours straight vacuuming a flooding basement is
guaranteed to make you a little twitchy.  Take what I say with a grain
of salt.  I really do enjoy your enthusiasm for playing & for the joy
it brings you.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No I'm not saying that - I'm saying "Thats what I like" and the
"Tones that I like ". And that's the gear I like - thats all. To each
his own. people almost always complement me on killer tone when we
play out.
Loading Image...
If you can rock out with 5 watts and a 3" speaker cool for you... .
PS- I feel your pain - My washing machine screwed up a few weeks ago
and the water never turned off when it was filling. Its on the ground
floor ( called a Mud room in Minnesota where you take shoes off
etc.) ) . Wife was in the basement and didn't notice for 2hrs. All
hardwood floors buckeled, sheetroock trashed, Kitchen cabinets
trashed, Basement ceiling and walls trashed . Some buckets in the
basement that were sitting there had 5" of water in them ( just from
dripping from the ceiling)!! Sump pump saved my music gear and the
water didn't make it far enough to trash the ceiling over the music
gear - wheWWWWWWWWW. Only about $50k worth damage - but the Music
gear is GOOD!! : ' ) - e
dvaoa
2010-03-18 14:30:57 UTC
Permalink
No I'm not saying that - I'm saying "Thats what I like"  and the
"Tones that I like ". And that's the gear I like - thats all.
I hear yeah, and I know you're a good guy...it was just coming across
a lot more "dogmatic" than I thought you intended it to sound. And
like I said...the single nerve I had left was frayed ;-)
PS- I feel your pain - My washing machine screwed up a few weeks ago
and the water never turned off when it was filling. Its on the ground
floor ( called a Mud room in Minnesota where you take shoes off
etc.) ) . Wife was in the basement and didn't notice for 2hrs. All
hardwood floors buckeled, sheetroock trashed, Kitchen cabinets
trashed, Basement ceiling and walls trashed .  Some buckets in the
basement that were sitting there had 5" of water in them ( just from
dripping from the ceiling)!!  Sump pump saved my music gear and the
water didn't make it far enough to trash the ceiling over the music
gear - wheWWWWWWWWW.  Only about $50k worth damage - but the Music
gear is GOOD!!  : '  )    - e
Ouch...never good. As bad as we had it this time around, at least we
caught it at the start, so we just worked like dogs to keep ahead of
it & from spreading to the finished part of the basement, so we never
lost anything. And my coworker had a massive sewer backup during this
storm...THAT really sucked.

-d
Jim
2010-03-16 21:05:14 UTC
Permalink
15W equals SEVENTY PERCENT of the volume of 50W.

True wattage often varies from the amp rating, especially at distorted
levels. And speaker efficiency counts A LOT.

But try a single GE 6550A with a THD Univalve into a Vintage 30 cab.
I'm tellin' ya, it's LOUD. Too loud for me.

No, I don't gig, and I rarely jam. But I know the difference between
the above setup and a Deluxe Reverb, for example. And the Univalve is
louder.
RichL
2010-03-18 00:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
15W equals SEVENTY PERCENT of the volume of 50W.
True wattage often varies from the amp rating, especially at distorted
levels. And speaker efficiency counts A LOT.
Agree. But I didn't see your post until I had already posted my rant along
the same lines, so apologies.
RichL
2010-03-17 23:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Hope you've sobered up ;-)

Interestingly, no one has brought up speaker efficiency in this
conversation! Well, here's a thought.

Expressed in dB, the ratio of the power from a 40 W amp to that of a 15 W
amp is a little over 4 dB. That translates into volume ONLY if the
efficiencies of the speakers that the two amps are driving are THE SAME.

Guess what, boys & girls? Speaker efficiencies can vary by much more than
that. There's at least 6 dB of variation in efficiency for a variety of
commonly used guitar speakers.

Bottom line? It's possible for a 15 W amp to actually be LOUDER than a 40 W
amp, depending on what speakers are used on each.

Think about it.

"You cannot rock it out live with a 15 watt amp" is nonsense. It depends on
the speaker efficiency.

"My 15 watt amp works just fine". Probably true, but I bet it wouldn't be
if you used inefficient speakers.

You gotta look at the whole rig, not just the amp's rated output power.
n***@wt.net
2010-03-18 01:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Guess what, boys & girls?   Speaker efficiencies can vary by much more than
that.  There's at least 6 dB of variation in efficiency for a variety of
commonly used guitar speakers.
Bottom line?  It's possible for a 15 W amp to actually be LOUDER than a 40 W
amp, depending on what speakers are used on each.
An even lower line.. Some may get close, but I doubt this
applies to most so called 15 watt combo's.
Think about it.
I did.. More than once in fact..
"You cannot rock it out live with a 15 watt amp" is nonsense.  It depends on
the speaker efficiency.
Sure, but how many 15 watt amps have speakers efficient enough
for this to apply? I could probably count them on one hand and
have fingers left...
I know my Peavey studio pro 112 was not loud enough, and I bet
it would trounce many so called 15 watt amps. But also the power
output of the various 15 watt amps probably varies all over the map..
I would expect some to do much better than others. Some 15
watters are so distorted at full power they are useless, unless you
want that one trick tone.
The Peavey is LOUD at home. But not mixed with a bunch of
30-50 watt tube amps and a drummer, vocals, and keys.
It's narrow ass drowned... :(
"My 15 watt amp works just fine".  Probably true, but I bet it wouldn't be
if you used inefficient speakers.
You gotta look at the whole rig, not just the amp's rated output power.
Sure, but I see very few amps that small that would cut it. I'm not
saying they aren't out there, but I sure don't have any of them,
and I don't see them being used in the usual "no PA" scenario.
Well, unless you ain't really "hard rockin", but more "sears rockin",
or playing throttled back lower volume blues etc..

I'd consider my S/S 65 watts into a 12 to be at least equal to most
so called 15 watt amps. And like I said, in a bar scenario with no
PA, it didn't cut it.

I still agree with what Squier says.. But a lot of my opinion deals
with tone rather than outright volume. But like I said, in my
case, the equal of two 6V6's was not loud enough to keep up
with the other players and none of them were overly loud.

But I could care less what amp anyone wants to use.
Whatever floats a boat I say..
But you won't see me rockin with a 15 watt amp unless it's
at home. :/ 30 watts I could probably hang with as long as
the other guys aren't running Marshall stacks.
Like I say, more depends on what the "others" are using,
rather than what I show up with. At the last place I played,
no one ran amps that small, so there is no real way I could.
Almost everyone used amps in the 30-50 watt range.
And they were the perfect volume for the building, drummer,
and PA which pushed the vocals and keyboards.

And like I said from the beginning.. A good PA system,
and one can use anything. But we ain't talking about
amps miked through good PA systems in this case.
jimmy
2010-03-18 13:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@wt.net
Guess what, boys & girls?   Speaker efficiencies can vary by much more than
that.  There's at least 6 dB of variation in efficiency for a variety of
commonly used guitar speakers.
Bottom line?  It's possible for a 15 W amp to actually be LOUDER than a 40 W
amp, depending on what speakers are used on each.
An even lower line.. Some may get close, but I doubt this
applies to most so called 15 watt combo's.
Think about it.
I did.. More than once in fact..
"You cannot rock it out live with a 15 watt amp" is nonsense.  It depends on
the speaker efficiency.
Sure, but how many 15 watt amps have speakers efficient enough
for this to apply? I could probably count them on one hand and
have fingers left...
I know my Peavey studio pro 112 was not loud enough, and I bet
it would trounce many so called 15 watt amps. But also the power
output of the various 15 watt amps probably varies all over the map..
I would expect some to do much better than others. Some 15
watters are so distorted at full power they are useless, unless you
want that one trick tone.
The Peavey is LOUD at home. But not mixed with a bunch of
30-50 watt tube amps and a drummer, vocals, and keys.
It's narrow ass drowned... :(
"My 15 watt amp works just fine".  Probably true, but I bet it wouldn't be
if you used inefficient speakers.
You gotta look at the whole rig, not just the amp's rated output power.
Sure, but I see very few amps that small that would cut it. I'm not
saying they aren't out there, but I sure don't have any of them,
and I don't see them being used in the usual "no PA" scenario.
Well, unless you ain't really "hard rockin", but more "sears rockin",
or playing throttled back lower volume blues etc..
I'd consider my S/S 65 watts into a 12 to be at least equal to most
so called 15 watt amps. And like I said, in a bar scenario with no
PA, it didn't cut it.
I still agree with what Squier says.. But a lot of my opinion deals
with tone rather than outright volume. But like I said, in my
case, the equal of two 6V6's was not loud enough to keep up
with the other players and none of them were overly loud.
This seems to be the issue. How loud is loud? I wouldn't last 5
minutes in the volume settings you're talking about. I value my
hearing too much.
Post by n***@wt.net
But I could care less what amp anyone wants to use.
Whatever floats a boat I say..
But you won't see me rockin with a 15 watt amp unless it's
at home. :/ 30 watts I could probably hang with as long as
the other guys aren't running Marshall stacks.
Like I say, more depends on what the "others" are using,
rather than what I show up with. At the last place I played,
no one ran amps that small, so there is no real way I could.
Almost everyone used amps in the 30-50 watt range.
And they were the perfect volume for the building, drummer,
and PA which pushed the vocals and keyboards.
And like I said from the beginning.. A good PA system,
and one can use anything. But we ain't talking about
amps miked through good PA systems in this case.
Andy <nospam@>
2010-03-18 07:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichL
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Hope you've sobered up ;-)
Interestingly, no one has brought up speaker efficiency in this
conversation! Well, here's a thought.
Hmmm....I'm pretty sure I brought it up at least three times :-( - and I
think Jim did two or three times too...
Post by RichL
Expressed in dB, the ratio of the power from a 40 W amp to that of a 15 W
amp is a little over 4 dB. That translates into volume ONLY if the
efficiencies of the speakers that the two amps are driving are THE SAME.
Guess what, boys & girls? Speaker efficiencies can vary by much more than
that. There's at least 6 dB of variation in efficiency for a variety of
commonly used guitar speakers.
Bottom line? It's possible for a 15 W amp to actually be LOUDER than a 40 W
amp, depending on what speakers are used on each.
I've done it with a 15W amp into a 2x12 being louder than a 50 watt half
stack.
Post by RichL
Think about it.
"You cannot rock it out live with a 15 watt amp" is nonsense. It depends on
the speaker efficiency.
Correct.
--
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Greendistantstar
2010-03-18 08:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy <nospam@>
Post by RichL
Post by Squier
c'mon people. I know I don't have the experience most of you have
but there is no way you can play in a hard rockin band doing live
gigs and shows with a 15 watt amp. You can't even hear your own
amp on stage as a stage monitor. Your amp needs life support
just to be heard (mic'd out to PA and mic'd out to floor wedges
so you can hear yourself). ugh.
I really think for harder live rockin out you need
at least a dual EL34, 6L6, KT66.. etc power section.
you should have enough punch and cut and power to be
able to pull it off un-mic'd if necessary.
I am not sure where you guys are playing - but in younger
crowd clubs and bars we really get it dialed up and crankin'.
It's just something that comes with playing these places.
Those dual EL84, 6V6,, etc just don't cut it.
(yeah I know you have 18 watt Marshall clone and it SLAYS!
um... yeah ok.. in basement practices or backyard porch jams
with a light footed drummer and the other guitarist is playing
through a 15 watt amp. sure ok. then that's cool.)
I am NOT talking about great tones. I am talking about
enough punch and volume and headroom and watts to drive a 2x12 or 4x12
and be heard and sit in the mix be it your mic'd up or not
and your band is ROCKIN. Not playing soft rock or just bloooze
or cleaner country stuff (usually in the mix with acoustics).
So please don't tell me how your Orange Tiny Tincan Terror
ROCKS OUT.. it's enough to GiG wiTH. ummm... gimme a break.
Pop your zits somewhere else.
heh. I am Squier's eViL twin! Ok I am just sorta razzing some
people out there. But there's a bit of truth to what I'm saying.
Hope you've sobered up ;-)
Interestingly, no one has brought up speaker efficiency in this
conversation! Well, here's a thought.
Hmmm....I'm pretty sure I brought it up at least three times :-( - and I
think Jim did two or three times too...
Post by RichL
Expressed in dB, the ratio of the power from a 40 W amp to that of a 15 W
amp is a little over 4 dB. That translates into volume ONLY if the
efficiencies of the speakers that the two amps are driving are THE SAME.
Guess what, boys & girls? Speaker efficiencies can vary by much more than
that. There's at least 6 dB of variation in efficiency for a variety of
commonly used guitar speakers.
Bottom line? It's possible for a 15 W amp to actually be LOUDER than a 40 W
amp, depending on what speakers are used on each.
I've done it with a 15W amp into a 2x12 being louder than a 50 watt half
stack.
Post by RichL
Think about it.
"You cannot rock it out live with a 15 watt amp" is nonsense. It depends on
the speaker efficiency.
Correct.
Yes, I agree too. However, given identical speakers, ohms etc, how many 15w amps could push the air
as efficiently as a 50-100w not-crap amp? Very few, I'd posit; 5% perhaps? 4dB and 6dB are not
insignifcant differences at higher volumes where speaker efficiencies are equal.

*As a general rule* I wouldn't recommend gigging with a 15w amp unless it's in that 5% and/or a good
PA is available. The type of gig is obviously crucial, too. I've a 15w amp that gigs just fine for
country, but beyond that, er, no.

GDS

"Let's roll!"
Wrong_Note_Rod
2010-03-18 14:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greendistantstar
*As a general rule* I wouldn't recommend gigging with a 15w amp unless it's in that 5% and/or a good
PA is available. The type of gig is obviously crucial, too. I've a 15w amp that gigs just fine for
country, but beyond that, er, no.
I dont know how many watts my Blues Junior is, but its fricking loud as
hell when its turned up and a dirt pedal kicked in. I remember doing this
small club gig with a rock cover band, and the amps werent mic'd. I had a
little floor amp stand, that pointed the speaker up towards my head, and i
turned the amp up. I think my ears rang for three days afterwards, that
wasnt smart, never did that again. BUT it was plenty fucking loud for the
venue. The other guy had a newish Boogie combo, sounded like mud, never cut
thru anything.
Greendistantstar
2010-03-18 14:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wrong_Note_Rod
Post by Greendistantstar
*As a general rule* I wouldn't recommend gigging with a 15w amp unless it's in that 5% and/or a good
PA is available. The type of gig is obviously crucial, too. I've a 15w amp that gigs just fine for
country, but beyond that, er, no.
I dont know how many watts my Blues Junior is, but its fricking loud as
hell when its turned up and a dirt pedal kicked in. I remember doing this
small club gig with a rock cover band, and the amps werent mic'd. I had a
little floor amp stand, that pointed the speaker up towards my head, and i
turned the amp up. I think my ears rang for three days afterwards, that
wasnt smart, never did that again. BUT it was plenty fucking loud for the
venue. The other guy had a newish Boogie combo, sounded like mud, never cut
thru anything.
I saw Roy Buchanan fill good-sized hall with a Fender Vibrolux angled up, placed on a stool.

GDS

"Let's roll!"
notbob
2010-03-18 14:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greendistantstar
I saw Roy Buchanan fill good-sized hall with a Fender Vibrolux
angled up, placed on a stool.
Geez, that guy was amazing, wasn't he. He could get notes out of that
tele of his that would make a steam whistle cringe.

nb

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