figuring out chord progressions by ear question?

[t***@aol.com]

Hi,

I'm a pianist/keyboardist, but I'd like to ask for some tips and advice
on how to figure out the chord progression off a song I just heard on
the radio, or off a recording, by ear. The reason why I'm asking this
question here, as opposed to the piano or synth newsgroup, is because
of the fact that guitarists generally tend to play more by ear than
most pianists. A lot of piano players just stick to learning
everything from sheet music.

At the moment, I'm trying to get better at figuring out the chord
progressions, and I'm starting out on beatles songs, in particular I'm
working on their early tunes. What I'm doing is I'll listen to the
song in question, write down the lyrics on a piece of paper, and then
I'll write down what I think are the chords. Then I will check what I
have written down against the chords listed in the Beatles Fake book
for that song.

So far, what I'm doing, to figure out the key of the piece, I will sing
the first note along with the recording on the first note or the last
note. I then pick it out on the piano, and decide that is the overall
key of the song. I've been doing this on a couple of beatles songs,
and I've been getting the keys right, as they match up with what is
listed as the key in the beatles fake book.

The problem I have is in figuring out what the chord progression is.
How should I approach this? My idea was that I should write down the
lyrics of the song on a sheet of paper, and then listen very good to
the recording to hear where the guitar strummed chord patterns or bass
notes seem to be changing or moving. I would then notate when there
seems to be a chord change on the paper. I could write down what I
think the chord is, if I want to guess. The next thing I'd want to do
is, after having notated already where I think the chords are changing
above lyrics, I'd play the song again, but this time I'd want to play
along with the recording, playing chords on the piano where I notated
where I thought the chord changes were on paper. And then I'll see if
what I'm picking out on the piano sounds right against the chord on the
recording, whether it's major or minor, and etc. I'd then write down
what I think the chords are on the paper, and then I'd check them
against what the fake book has to see how I did.

What do you think of this approach, or do you think this is too tidious
for a beginner? Am I doing this right? What would you recommend as a
good approach to figuring out songs by ear? Also, I've read some posts
where it's been recommended that one should figure out where the bass
notes change, and then hum them and pick out the notes on the piano. I
know that a lot of times, the bass note is the root note of the chord.
In figuring out a beatles song by ear, should I listen for the bass
line (sometimes they are hard to hear), hum each individual bass note,
and pick them all out on the piano? Is that really necessary or
helpful?

[Carl]

It seems to me that you already have all the ideas there are for figuring
out the changes to a song. You seem to be going through the same steps I
might go through in doing the same. It may be tedious, but it surely pays
off. I'm told that transcribing like that is one of the best ways to really
learn a piece.

That said, the only thing I think you may have left out (you're not clear on
whether you have this understanding) is that certain specific chords are
diatonic to the key (ie. belong to the group of chords in a key). In MOST
cases, the chords will be from the diatonic list.

The diatonic chords are constructed from the 7 tones in the key's scale and
follow the pattern Maj, min, min, Maj, Dom7, min, dim if we're talking about
a Major key.

So, in the key of C, the scale is C, D, E, F, G, , B and the related chords
of the key would be C, Dm, Em, F, G7, Am, Bdim.

If you follow that pattern for each key, you will have a strong idea of what
the correct chords should be. Of coure, in music as in many other things,
there are always exceptions. One exception is that sometimes the minor
chords can be Dom7 chords instead. So, for example, E7 is often found in the
key of C instead of Em. And/or Am may be A7. Look at Nobody Knows You When
You're Down and Out as one example.

Keep plugging away and good luck.

Post by t***@aol.com
Hi,
I'm a pianist/keyboardist, but I'd like to ask for some tips and advice
on how to figure out the chord progression off a song I just heard on
the radio, or off a recording, by ear. The reason why I'm asking this
question here, as opposed to the piano or synth newsgroup, is because
of the fact that guitarists generally tend to play more by ear than
most pianists. A lot of piano players just stick to learning
everything from sheet music.
At the moment, I'm trying to get better at figuring out the chord
progressions, and I'm starting out on beatles songs, in particular I'm
working on their early tunes. What I'm doing is I'll listen to the
song in question, write down the lyrics on a piece of paper, and then
I'll write down what I think are the chords. Then I will check what I
have written down against the chords listed in the Beatles Fake book
for that song.
So far, what I'm doing, to figure out the key of the piece, I will sing
the first note along with the recording on the first note or the last
note. I then pick it out on the piano, and decide that is the overall
key of the song. I've been doing this on a couple of beatles songs,
and I've been getting the keys right, as they match up with what is
listed as the key in the beatles fake book.
The problem I have is in figuring out what the chord progression is.
How should I approach this? My idea was that I should write down the
lyrics of the song on a sheet of paper, and then listen very good to
the recording to hear where the guitar strummed chord patterns or bass
notes seem to be changing or moving. I would then notate when there
seems to be a chord change on the paper. I could write down what I
think the chord is, if I want to guess. The next thing I'd want to do
is, after having notated already where I think the chords are changing
above lyrics, I'd play the song again, but this time I'd want to play
along with the recording, playing chords on the piano where I notated
where I thought the chord changes were on paper. And then I'll see if
what I'm picking out on the piano sounds right against the chord on the
recording, whether it's major or minor, and etc. I'd then write down
what I think the chords are on the paper, and then I'd check them
against what the fake book has to see how I did.
What do you think of this approach, or do you think this is too tidious
for a beginner? Am I doing this right? What would you recommend as a
good approach to figuring out songs by ear? Also, I've read some posts
where it's been recommended that one should figure out where the bass
notes change, and then hum them and pick out the notes on the piano. I
know that a lot of times, the bass note is the root note of the chord.
In figuring out a beatles song by ear, should I listen for the bass
line (sometimes they are hard to hear), hum each individual bass note,
and pick them all out on the piano? Is that really necessary or
helpful?

[Mike Alpha]

I play guitar by ear and I figure out chord progressions by first working
out the root note of the chord. I make sure the guitar is in tune with the
song and then as I hear a chord, I try to match it to a note on the low E
string.

Once I've worked out the basic singular note progression, I then play the
notes as major chords and if the chord doesn't sound right, I try again as a
minor chord, or a 7th.

You'd be surprised how many rock songs use a basic G, C, D or E, A, B chord
progression.

Mike

Post by t***@aol.com
Hi,
I'm a pianist/keyboardist, but I'd like to ask for some tips and advice
on how to figure out the chord progression off a song I just heard on
the radio, or off a recording, by ear. The reason why I'm asking this
question here, as opposed to the piano or synth newsgroup, is because
of the fact that guitarists generally tend to play more by ear than
most pianists. A lot of piano players just stick to learning
everything from sheet music.
At the moment, I'm trying to get better at figuring out the chord
progressions, and I'm starting out on beatles songs, in particular I'm
working on their early tunes. What I'm doing is I'll listen to the
song in question, write down the lyrics on a piece of paper, and then
I'll write down what I think are the chords. Then I will check what I
have written down against the chords listed in the Beatles Fake book
for that song.
So far, what I'm doing, to figure out the key of the piece, I will sing
the first note along with the recording on the first note or the last
note. I then pick it out on the piano, and decide that is the overall
key of the song. I've been doing this on a couple of beatles songs,
and I've been getting the keys right, as they match up with what is
listed as the key in the beatles fake book.
The problem I have is in figuring out what the chord progression is.
How should I approach this? My idea was that I should write down the
lyrics of the song on a sheet of paper, and then listen very good to
the recording to hear where the guitar strummed chord patterns or bass
notes seem to be changing or moving. I would then notate when there
seems to be a chord change on the paper. I could write down what I
think the chord is, if I want to guess. The next thing I'd want to do
is, after having notated already where I think the chords are changing
above lyrics, I'd play the song again, but this time I'd want to play
along with the recording, playing chords on the piano where I notated
where I thought the chord changes were on paper. And then I'll see if
what I'm picking out on the piano sounds right against the chord on the
recording, whether it's major or minor, and etc. I'd then write down
what I think the chords are on the paper, and then I'd check them
against what the fake book has to see how I did.
What do you think of this approach, or do you think this is too tidious
for a beginner? Am I doing this right? What would you recommend as a
good approach to figuring out songs by ear? Also, I've read some posts
where it's been recommended that one should figure out where the bass
notes change, and then hum them and pick out the notes on the piano. I
know that a lot of times, the bass note is the root note of the chord.
In figuring out a beatles song by ear, should I listen for the bass
line (sometimes they are hard to hear), hum each individual bass note,
and pick them all out on the piano? Is that really necessary or
helpful?

[Klas Törnquist]

Post by t***@aol.com
Hi,
I'm a pianist/keyboardist, but I'd like to ask for some tips and advice
on how to figure out the chord progression off a song I just heard on
the radio, or off a recording, by ear. The reason why I'm asking this
question here, as opposed to the piano or synth newsgroup, is because
of the fact that guitarists generally tend to play more by ear than
most pianists. A lot of piano players just stick to learning
everything from sheet music.
At the moment, I'm trying to get better at figuring out the chord
progressions, and I'm starting out on beatles songs, in particular I'm
working on their early tunes.

Some of the early Beatles songs are relatively straightforward, but for
learning how to figure out chords by ear, you may want to start with
some easier material.

Klas

[Nil]

What would you recommend as a good approach to figuring out
songs by ear? Also, I've read some posts where it's been
recommended that one should figure out where the bass notes
change, and then hum them and pick out the notes on the piano.
I know that a lot of times, the bass note is the root note of
the chord.

I think your basic approach is sound. The way I usually do it is
to find the bass note, find the melody note, then try to find one
or two other notes in the accompaniment. Put them all together,
and you can usually find the chord of the moment in there,
although it might be disguised. For example, the bass note might
not be the root of the chord - it might be an inversion of the
chord. Or the melody might be an extension of the chord, like a 9
or major 7. You need to already be familiar with the sound of many
common chord progressions - once you are, you will recognize them
all over the place.

So, my advice it to find a method that works for you and keep
plugging away at it. The more songs you transcribe, the more
common patterns you discover, the sharper your ears become, and
the better you get at it.

[t***@aol.com]

Post by Nil

What would you recommend as a good approach to figuring out
songs by ear? Also, I've read some posts where it's been
recommended that one should figure out where the bass notes
change, and then hum them and pick out the notes on the piano.
I know that a lot of times, the bass note is the root note of
the chord.

I think your basic approach is sound. The way I usually do it is
to find the bass note, find the melody note, then try to find one
or two other notes in the accompaniment. Put them all together,
and you can usually find the chord of the moment in there,
although it might be disguised. For example, the bass note might
not be the root of the chord - it might be an inversion of the
chord. Or the melody might be an extension of the chord, like a 9
or major 7. You need to already be familiar with the sound of many
common chord progressions - once you are, you will recognize them
all over the place.

Hi Nil,

I think that knowing what's going on in the bass is important to
figuring out a lot of chord progressions, but a lot of times it's hard
to hear the bass line or what it's doing. You say that you find the
bass note and other notes to deduce what the chord is. Do you have
perfect pitch, or do you painstakingly have to go to the guitar and
pick out notes that sound like they match the bass? I don't have
perfect pitch, so I think it would be a trial & error process of going
to the piano and picking out notes that I think sound like what the
bass is doing. And, even then, I might get it wrong. Sometimes I mess
up when figuring the key of a song.

I have been spending more time on practicing and studying common chord
progressions, but in some of the more complex songs, it seems like
having something like perfect pitch would've really come in handy.

[Nil]

Do you have perfect pitch, or do you painstakingly have to go to
the guitar and pick out notes that sound like they match the
bass?

I have nothing even close to perfect pitch, although after so many
years, I can usually get close, or at least within an octave. But
I do have very good relative pitch, and I'm good at matching
pitches. Also, I'm very familiar with the sound of the various
intervals, so once I've identified a note, I can tell if the next
one is, say, a 4th higher, or a 2nd lower, etc.

I've always been pretty good at it, but I've still gotten better
at it over time, so I still recommend you just keep plugging away
at it. You do get better with practice.

I don't have perfect pitch, so I think it would be a trial &
error process of going to the piano and picking out notes that I
think sound like what the bass is doing. And, even then, I
might get it wrong. Sometimes I mess up when figuring the key
of a song.

It does involve some trial and error, but this is also where
familiarity with common progressions comes into play. Maybe 75% of
the chord progressions in popular music can be boiled down to one
harminic sequence: subdominant -> dominant -> tonic. In other
words, IV V I (for example, C D G in the key of G) or some
variation of it like II V I (Am D G). I like to say the every
song in the world is really "Hang On Sloopy" at heart (obviously a
gross and inaccurate generalization". Point being, that once
you've identified the key, the possibilities are reduced to a
managable number.

I have been spending more time on practicing and studying common
chord progressions, but in some of the more complex songs, it
seems like having something like perfect pitch would've really
come in handy.

I've done OK without it, and I don't actually think it would be
much of an advatage. Good relative pitch is more helpful.

[The Repair Guy]

***@aol.com wrote:

--snip--

Post by t***@aol.com
At the moment, I'm trying to get better at figuring out
the chord progressions, and I'm starting out on beatles
songs, in particular I'm working on their early tunes.

I played with a keyboard player with a great ear.
Coincidentally, he said he taught himself by learning
Beatles' songs.

Post by t***@aol.com
What I'm doing is I'll listen to the song in question, write
down the lyrics on a piece of paper, and then I'll write
down what I think are the chords. Then I will check what
I have written down against the chords listed in the
Beatles Fake book for that song.

I'd check against the recording you listened to.
Fake books & transcriptions vary in accuracy.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[r***@hotmail.com]

tysteel3 gave you better advice than you know right now....

Honestly, the best way to "hear" better is to study and play the chords
in a key and study the math behind the relationships. When you can
recall the sounds in your head by number, then hearing makes you think
of the number. You automatically have the right answer, or at least a
strategy to approach achieving a sound you hear.

Buy the book Beginning Jazz Guitar by Jody Fisher. Alfred
Publishing.... Great theory explanation that filled the gaps in my
thinking...... Just so you know, I'm 49 years old, played about 10,000+
gigs in my life. Teaching guitar full time about 10 years plus regular
gigs...

Like being a doctor or a lawyer, you must know the rules. If you study
them they are easy to understand. But you MUST study, and that means
playing scales and arpeggios 'til you drop. That is what we do....
Learning to hear, use and alter the diatonic scale is the beginning of
it all.

You may be gifted in music. Many players are. But they all studied.
It's not magic. It's science. The only way to do it right is to study
the science. Anything else is wasting time. Develop the tools.

Best wishes to you.

TLC

[Guncho]

Post by r***@hotmail.com
tysteel3 gave you better advice than you know right now....
Honestly, the best way to "hear" better is to study and play the chords
in a key and study the math behind the relationships. When you can
recall the sounds in your head by number, then hearing makes you think
of the number. You automatically have the right answer, or at least a
strategy to approach achieving a sound you hear.
Buy the book Beginning Jazz Guitar by Jody Fisher. Alfred
Publishing.... Great theory explanation that filled the gaps in my
thinking...... Just so you know, I'm 49 years old, played about 10,000+
gigs in my life. Teaching guitar full time about 10 years plus regular
gigs...
Like being a doctor or a lawyer, you must know the rules. If you study
them they are easy to understand. But you MUST study, and that means
playing scales and arpeggios 'til you drop.

That is simply untrue. The "Rules" did not come first. Music came
first. Rules were then made up to describe what the music was doing.

Also how are scales and arpeggios going to help you figure out chord
changes?

Chris

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho
Also how are scales and arpeggios going to help
you figure out chord changes?

They're interrelated. Arpeggios ARE chords, and
chords are built using certain tones of a scale - a
simple major chord uses the first, third, and fifth
tones of a major scale.
If the song is in C major, for example, the obvious
chords to look at first are the I, IV and V. These are
SO commonly used that they're almost like the 3
primary colors of the music world.
Believe it or not, their names come from the roots
being... wait for it... the first, fourth, and fifth tones of
the C major scale. If you can hear intervals in a
scale - root to fifth, say, or third to flat seventh -
you'll be able to hear intervals between chords.
Intervals are intervals.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Guncho]

Post by The Repair Guy

Post by Guncho
Also how are scales and arpeggios going to help
you figure out chord changes?

They're interrelated. Arpeggios ARE chords, and
chords are built using certain tones of a scale - a
simple major chord uses the first, third, and fifth
tones of a major scale.
If the song is in C major, for example, the obvious
chords to look at first are the I, IV and V. These are
SO commonly used that they're almost like the 3
primary colors of the music world.
Believe it or not, their names come from the roots
being... wait for it... the first, fourth, and fifth tones of
the C major scale. If you can hear intervals in a
scale - root to fifth, say, or third to flat seventh -
you'll be able to hear intervals between chords.
Intervals are intervals.
The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

I can hear intervals I just don't know or really need to know the
numbers of them I guess.

Also I certainly wouldn't agree that you HAVE to learn all of that to
figure out songs.

Chris

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho
I can hear intervals I just don't know or really need
to know the numbers of them I guess.
Also I certainly wouldn't agree that you HAVE to
learn all of that to figure out songs.

You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Nil]

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which is essentially how I
learned guitar.

Chris

[Nil]

Post by Guncho
Or you could just ask someone for directions which is
essentially how I learned guitar.

And what do you do when you're out in the middle on an unknown
territory without someone to ask?

Unless you're willing and able to remember and use the directions
someone has kindly given you, I wouldn't call it "learning".

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
Or you could just ask someone for directions which is
essentially how I learned guitar.

And what do you do when you're out in the middle on an unknown
territory without someone to ask?
Unless you're willing and able to remember and use the directions
someone has kindly given you, I wouldn't call it "learning".

You figure it out on your own. I use chords all the time that I don't
know what they are called.

Chris

[Nil]

Post by Guncho
You figure it out on your own. I use chords all the time that I don't
know what they are called.

You're doing it again, changing subject in the middle of the
discussion. Have you forgotten that the subject was NOT about the names
of chords?

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
You figure it out on your own. I use chords all the time that I don't
know what they are called.

You're doing it again, changing subject in the middle of the
discussion. Have you forgotten that the subject was NOT about the names
of chords?

What was the subject? Using road maps?

Chris

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
You figure it out on your own. I use chords all
the time that I don't know what they are called.

You're doing it again, changing subject in the
middle of the discussion. Have you forgotten
that the subject was NOT about the names of
chords?

What was the subject? Using road maps?

"figuring out chord progressions by ear".
The road map was just an analogy. Sorry.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[RC Moonpie]

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which is essentially how I
learned guitar.

wow! and listen how far you got. you know guncho, its pretty pointless
for you to describe your own lack of knowledge, as something for
anybody else to ascribe to, or use as a model for development.

Sure, i agree, you wouldnt HAVE to learn any theory or scales or
arpeggios and you could maybe ask someone else or eventually stumble
onto the chords of a tune. HOWEVER. Learning scales, theory and
arpeggios, would make figuring out chord progressions infinitely
easier and quicker. Unless the only thing you ever wanted to learn was
the chords to a Nirvana tune.

[Guncho]

Post by RC Moonpie

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which is essentially how I
learned guitar.

wow! and listen how far you got. you know guncho, its pretty pointless
for you to describe your own lack of knowledge, as something for
anybody else to ascribe to, or use as a model for development.

Could you tell me exactly what you don't like about my playing? Point
out a bad note I hit? Did you even listen to my playing or is this
just because of some personal grudge you hold against me?

Post by RC Moonpie
Sure, i agree, you wouldnt HAVE to learn any theory or scales or
arpeggios and you could maybe ask someone else or eventually stumble
onto the chords of a tune. HOWEVER. Learning scales, theory and
arpeggios, would make figuring out chord progressions infinitely
easier and quicker. Unless the only thing you ever wanted to learn was
the chords to a Nirvana tune.

I never said musical theory wouldn't help you learn to play guitar, I
said it was not ABSOLULTEY ESSENTIAL to know to figure out Beatles
songs which it's not, as I can play Beatles songs and don't know much
theory.

Chris

[Nil]

Post by Guncho
I never said musical theory wouldn't help you learn to play
guitar, I said it was not ABSOLULTEY ESSENTIAL to know to figure
out Beatles songs

Yes, you said it repeatedly. My question is why do you keep saying it?
Nobody else has insisted on that point. You keep bringing it up as if
you're refuting someone's assertion that you can't do squat unless you
"know theory". I've never heard anyone seriously say that, and I've
certainly not seen such a point brought up in this discussion. So,
again, why do you bring that up out of the blue, when the topic is "how
to figure out chord progressions"?

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
I never said musical theory wouldn't help you learn to play
guitar, I said it was not ABSOLULTEY ESSENTIAL to know to figure
out Beatles songs

Yes, you said it repeatedly. My question is why do you keep saying it?
Nobody else has insisted on that point. You keep bringing it up as if
you're refuting someone's assertion that you can't do squat unless you
"know theory". I've never heard anyone seriously say that, and I've
certainly not seen such a point brought up in this discussion. So,
again, why do you bring that up out of the blue, when the topic is "how
to figure out chord progressions"?

This guy said it:

***@hotmail.com said

"Like being a doctor or a lawyer, you must know the rules. If you study

them they are easy to understand. But you MUST study, and that means
playing scales and arpeggios 'til you drop. That is what we do....
Learning to hear, use and alter the diatonic scale is the beginning of
it all. "

Chris

[RC Moonpie]

Post by Guncho

Post by RC Moonpie

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which is essentially how I
learned guitar.

wow! and listen how far you got. you know guncho, its pretty pointless
for you to describe your own lack of knowledge, as something for
anybody else to ascribe to, or use as a model for development.

Could you tell me exactly what you don't like about my playing? Point
out a bad note I hit? Did you even listen to my playing or is this
just because of some personal grudge you hold against me?

its dull, unimaginative, and not played all that well, mediocre at
best. Yeah I've heard it. You've posted the links often enough ;-)

sorry, you asked, I know you dont care, and thats fine. Its the
combination of you, always pulling your dick out for measurement, and
then attempting to back up your snobby snot-nosed idiocy with these
sub-par clips as proof that you know anything about what you're
saying. Its a joke.

Anyway, this is just more of what Elliott Randall has said ruined the
online music community, so, I'll try to be nicer to you. But, there it
is, you asked.

[Guncho]

Post by RC Moonpie

Post by Guncho

Post by RC Moonpie

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which is essentially how I
learned guitar.

wow! and listen how far you got. you know guncho, its pretty pointless
for you to describe your own lack of knowledge, as something for
anybody else to ascribe to, or use as a model for development.

Could you tell me exactly what you don't like about my playing? Point
out a bad note I hit? Did you even listen to my playing or is this
just because of some personal grudge you hold against me?

its dull, unimaginative, and not played all that well, mediocre at
best. Yeah I've heard it. You've posted the links often enough ;-)
sorry, you asked, I know you dont care, and thats fine. Its the
combination of you, always pulling your dick out for measurement, and
then attempting to back up your snobby snot-nosed idiocy with these
sub-par clips as proof that you know anything about what you're
saying. Its a joke.
Anyway, this is just more of what Elliott Randall has said ruined the
online music community, so, I'll try to be nicer to you. But, there it
is, you asked.

That is your biased opinion and you're enitled to it. During my time
in the band we had lots of people tell us otherwise so I'll take your
comments with a grain of salt. Especially knowing that you don't like
me and obviously have some axe to grind.

I don't think I'm the shit and have never said I was. If I was the
shit I wouldn't be working a 9-5 job.

Chris

[Mu Major]

Working out chords by ear.

Working out chords by ear is like filling in the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

Some songs are more difficult than others to work out. Your ear will improve
with practice. Listen to the song with a guitar in your hand. Don't think
chords think melody. Make up little fills that complement the song on your
bass strings. Copy what you hear on the record. You should end up with a
bass line similar to the one on the record. Now fill in the chords. How do
the chords sound ? Jazzy, Spanish, dissonant, evil, folksy, grungy ? A few
pointers-Jazzy =min7 or maj7 usually, Spanish = Min chords, dominant sevens,
dissonant=probably chords with open strings or close intervals like min9's.
evil=tritones, fifths, fourths,Folksy=dominant 7 chords open tunings,
grungy=power 5ths. Find a good chord book. Hope this helps.

Post by RC Moonpie

Post by Guncho

Post by RC Moonpie

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which is essentially how I
learned guitar.

wow! and listen how far you got. you know guncho, its pretty pointless
for you to describe your own lack of knowledge, as something for
anybody else to ascribe to, or use as a model for development.

Could you tell me exactly what you don't like about my playing? Point
out a bad note I hit? Did you even listen to my playing or is this
just because of some personal grudge you hold against me?

its dull, unimaginative, and not played all that well, mediocre at
best. Yeah I've heard it. You've posted the links often enough ;-)
sorry, you asked, I know you dont care, and thats fine. Its the
combination of you, always pulling your dick out for measurement, and
then attempting to back up your snobby snot-nosed idiocy with these
sub-par clips as proof that you know anything about what you're
saying. Its a joke.
Anyway, this is just more of what Elliott Randall has said ruined the
online music community, so, I'll try to be nicer to you. But, there it
is, you asked.

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles
for hours and maybe you'll find it eventually if you're
lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have arrived, partied, and gone
home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which
is essentially how I learned guitar.

If you rely on this, the person you ask has to know.
With the map, YOU will know.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Guncho]

Post by The Repair Guy

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles
for hours and maybe you'll find it eventually if you're
lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have arrived, partied, and gone
home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which
is essentially how I learned guitar.

If you rely on this, the person you ask has to know.
With the map, YOU will know.
The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

I'm not saying theory is bad. It's just not absolutely necessary to
fully understand every aspect of it to play the guitar. There are lots
of unschooled players who do just fine with basic major/minor chord
names and the notes of the frets. That's all I know and I played in
bands for eight years.

Chris

[Guncho]

Post by The Repair Guy

Post by Guncho

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles
for hours and maybe you'll find it eventually if you're
lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have arrived, partied, and gone
home long before you ever get there.

Or you could just ask someone for directions which
is essentially how I learned guitar.

If you rely on this, the person you ask has to know.
With the map, YOU will know.
The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

Sorry your vast intellect lost my pea sized brain.

Chris

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho

Post by The Repair Guy

Post by Guncho
Or you could just ask someone for directions which
is essentially how I learned guitar.

If you rely on this, the person you ask has to know.
With the map, YOU will know.

Sorry your vast intellect lost my pea sized brain.

It happens. Don't beat yourself up over it.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Charles Richmond]

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles for hours and maybe
you'll find it eventually if you're lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have
arrived, partied, and gone home long before you ever get there.

GPS



--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Nil

Post by The Repair Guy
You don't need a road map to find your way to a
strange place, either.

Right. You can drive around and around in circles
for hours and maybe you'll find it eventually if you're
lucky. Meanwhile, I'll have arrived, partied, and gone
home long before you ever get there.

I knew someone would get it :-)

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Doug]

Nah, the thing to do, so you are REALLY COOL, is know music theory
forward and back, but never tell anyone. Act like you just figured it
out by ear. "Hey man, I just listen to the song and play it"......

[r***@hotmail.com]

Sorry ty, my review of the board showed me that Carl was the dispenser
of wisdom and you were the seeker.

Well, seek, tysteel.....

The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step........

[Carl]

Thanks for this correction, revtfunk. After reading all the posts that
followed mine, I couldn't help but wonder why tysteel failed to acknowledge
my post unless he didn't read it all or couldn't follow it as a beginner.

Briefly said, tysteel, my original post has more useful information in it
for you than many of the others and it would benefit you to give it more
attention. Read it a few times if need be, but do read it.

Post by r***@hotmail.com
Sorry ty, my review of the board showed me that Carl was the dispenser
of wisdom and you were the seeker.
Well, seek, tysteel.....
The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step........

[t***@aol.com]

Post by Carl
Thanks for this correction, revtfunk. After reading all the posts that
followed mine, I couldn't help but wonder why tysteel failed to acknowledge
my post unless he didn't read it all or couldn't follow it as a beginner.
Briefly said, tysteel, my original post has more useful information in it
for you than many of the others and it would benefit you to give it more
attention. Read it a few times if need be, but do read it.

Thank you very much for your post, Carl. I will certainly study it
and keep everything in mind. There's a lot of good advice there. I'd
like to thank everyone who has offered helpful suggestions on this
topic.

Post by Carl

Post by r***@hotmail.com
Sorry ty, my review of the board showed me that Carl was the dispenser
of wisdom and you were the seeker.
Well, seek, tysteel.....
The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step........

[Keep YerSpam]

Best bet to start for most rock or blues tunes, is listen to what the
bass is doing. Your chord progression is usually right there all the way
through the song. There will always be exceptions, but they're in the
vast minority.

Cheers,
- JJ

[gatt]

Best bet to start for most rock or blues tunes, is listen to what the bass
is doing. Your chord progression is usually right there all the way
through the song. There will always be exceptions, but they're in the vast
minority.

Absolutely. It helps me to WRITE the chords in simple form too, to eliminate
the mental memory delay. Am-G-D-C-D etc because that gives you a visual
memory aid, like drawing during a lecture.

By the way, if you're like I was and you have to take notes in a long,
boring-ass lecture and when you're done, your notes are more cryptic than
the lecture, try drawing a picture while you listen.

You will remember the picture long after you remember the words, but when
you remember the picture your mind will recall what the professor was
saying. You can always scribble notes on it, but it beats not taking notes
at all. For me, the same applies to chording: If I SEE it, I'll remember
the mental picture all the way down to the handwriting.

-c

[Guncho]

Post by t***@aol.com
Hi,
I'm a pianist/keyboardist, but I'd like to ask for some tips and advice
on how to figure out the chord progression off a song I just heard on
the radio, or off a recording, by ear. The reason why I'm asking this
question here, as opposed to the piano or synth newsgroup, is because
of the fact that guitarists generally tend to play more by ear than
most pianists. A lot of piano players just stick to learning
everything from sheet music.
At the moment, I'm trying to get better at figuring out the chord
progressions, and I'm starting out on beatles songs, in particular I'm
working on their early tunes. What I'm doing is I'll listen to the
song in question, write down the lyrics on a piece of paper, and then
I'll write down what I think are the chords. Then I will check what I
have written down against the chords listed in the Beatles Fake book
for that song.
So far, what I'm doing, to figure out the key of the piece, I will sing
the first note along with the recording on the first note or the last
note. I then pick it out on the piano, and decide that is the overall
key of the song. I've been doing this on a couple of beatles songs,
and I've been getting the keys right, as they match up with what is
listed as the key in the beatles fake book.
The problem I have is in figuring out what the chord progression is.
How should I approach this? My idea was that I should write down the
lyrics of the song on a sheet of paper, and then listen very good to
the recording to hear where the guitar strummed chord patterns or bass
notes seem to be changing or moving. I would then notate when there
seems to be a chord change on the paper. I could write down what I
think the chord is, if I want to guess. The next thing I'd want to do
is, after having notated already where I think the chords are changing
above lyrics, I'd play the song again, but this time I'd want to play
along with the recording, playing chords on the piano where I notated
where I thought the chord changes were on paper. And then I'll see if
what I'm picking out on the piano sounds right against the chord on the
recording, whether it's major or minor, and etc. I'd then write down
what I think the chords are on the paper, and then I'd check them
against what the fake book has to see how I did.
What do you think of this approach, or do you think this is too tidious
for a beginner? Am I doing this right? What would you recommend as a
good approach to figuring out songs by ear? Also, I've read some posts
where it's been recommended that one should figure out where the bass
notes change, and then hum them and pick out the notes on the piano. I
know that a lot of times, the bass note is the root note of the chord.
In figuring out a beatles song by ear, should I listen for the bass
line (sometimes they are hard to hear), hum each individual bass note,
and pick them all out on the piano? Is that really necessary or
helpful?

I just figure out the root notes on the E and A strings then play the
appropriate chord. Doesn't work all the time but a lot of the time.

As for what key a song is in, does it really matter? If you're talking
about figuring out the chords what difference does the key make?

Chris

[Nil]

Post by Guncho
As for what key a song is in, does it really matter? If you're
talking about figuring out the chords what difference does the
key make?

If you know the key of the song, the probable chords are reduced to a
much more manageable number and the sequence is much easier to
anticipate.

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
As for what key a song is in, does it really matter? If you're
talking about figuring out the chords what difference does the
key make?

If you know the key of the song, the probable chords are reduced to a
much more manageable number and the sequence is much easier to
anticipate.

It doesn't seem like essential knowledge to figure out songs that may
contain five chords. Certainly wouldn't hurt but I wouldn't say it was
essential.

I personally don't know anything about progressions or scales or keys
and generally don't have a problem figuring stuff out.

Chris

[Nil]

Post by Guncho
I personally don't know anything about progressions or scales or
keys and generally don't have a problem figuring stuff out.

Well, I don't really believe you. If you've been at it long enough
you will have picked up on the patterns, whether you know it or not.
But if you truly have no idea want a key is, you'll just have to
trust me on this... picking off chord progressions is much easier if
you know what key you're in.

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
I personally don't know anything about progressions or scales or
keys and generally don't have a problem figuring stuff out.

Well, I don't really believe you. If you've been at it long enough
you will have picked up on the patterns, whether you know it or not.
But if you truly have no idea want a key is, you'll just have to
trust me on this... picking off chord progressions is much easier if
you know what key you're in.

Yeah I have picked up on the patterns but don't know what they're
called. Therefore it is not essential to know what these patterns are
called or what key a song is in to figure out how to strum a few
chords.

Chris

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho
Yeah I have picked up on the patterns but don't know
what they're called. Therefore it is not essential to
know what these patterns are called or what key a
song is in to figure out how to strum a few chords.

Names come in handy when you're trying to
communicate. It saves a lot of

"You know - just play the chord that's almost like the
one [insert band] plays near the beginning of [insert
song]. Play it three times real quick, wait a second,
then play the Hendrix chord twice. Not as fast as you
played the other one. No; the OTHER one. You know.
Here, listen: nuh-nuh-nuh... nuh... nuh... Wait - I meant
this one..."

etc., etc.

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Guncho]

Post by The Repair Guy

Post by Guncho
Yeah I have picked up on the patterns but don't know
what they're called. Therefore it is not essential to
know what these patterns are called or what key a
song is in to figure out how to strum a few chords.

Names come in handy when you're trying to
communicate. It saves a lot of
"You know - just play the chord that's almost like the
one [insert band] plays near the beginning of [insert
song]. Play it three times real quick, wait a second,
then play the Hendrix chord twice. Not as fast as you
played the other one. No; the OTHER one. You know.
Here, listen: nuh-nuh-nuh... nuh... nuh... Wait - I meant
this one..."
etc., etc.
The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

Did I say you don't need to know the names of chords?

Chris

[The Repair Guy]

Post by Guncho

Post by The Repair Guy

Post by Guncho
Yeah I have picked up on the patterns but don't
know what they're called. Therefore it is not
essential to know what these patterns are called
or what key a song is in to figure out how to strum
a few chords.

Names come in handy when you're trying to
communicate. It saves a lot of
"You know - just play the chord that's almost like the
one [insert band] plays near the beginning of [insert
song]. Play it three times real quick, wait a second,
then play the Hendrix chord twice. Not as fast as you
played the other one. No; the OTHER one. You know.
Here, listen: nuh-nuh-nuh... nuh... nuh... Wait - I meant
this one..."
etc., etc.

Did I say you don't need to know the names of chords?

I don't know. Did you?

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

[Nil]

Post by Guncho
Yeah I have picked up on the patterns but don't know what
they're called. Therefore it is not essential to know what these
patterns are called or what key a song is in to figure out how
to strum a few chords.

Nobody said that it was "essential". Where did you get that from?

It's not essential that you learn any words more complex than "Friend
good, fire bad", but I still maintain that it's helpful.

[Guncho]

Post by Nil

Post by Guncho
Yeah I have picked up on the patterns but don't know what
they're called. Therefore it is not essential to know what these
patterns are called or what key a song is in to figure out how
to strum a few chords.

Nobody said that it was "essential". Where did you get that from?
It's not essential that you learn any words more complex than "Friend
good, fire bad", but I still maintain that it's helpful.

"Like being a doctor or a lawyer, you must know the rules. If you study

them they are easy to understand. But you MUST study, and that means
playing scales and arpeggios 'til you drop. That is what we do....
Learning to hear, use and alter the diatonic scale is the beginning of
it all. "

Chris